Questions for the pub minister
Monday, March 29, 2010 
Blogging will be light today. Tomorrow I've got a meeting with pubs minister John Healey so I shall be spending most of the day preparing for that. Also at the meeting: Greg Knight MP (Conservative) and David Clelland MP (Labour).
On March 18 Healey announced a 12 point action plan to give practical support to community pubs up and down the country, backed by £4million in government funding. Needless to say, amendments to the smoking ban don't feature.
If there is a question - or some relevant fact - you would like me to put to the minister, please comment here.
Update: Anti-smoke ban MPs to meet Healey (Morning Advertiser)
Smokers' lobby group to meet pubs minister (The Publican)
Simon Clark
Thank you for all your comments - much appreciated and very useful. There has been an interesting development which I will tell you about when I get a moment. Watch this space.
Reader Comments (147)
If you think it would be appropriate, perhaps you could ask something along the lines of, "Every time anyone in the Government mentions the smoking ban, it is to say what an unqualified success it has been, and how popular it is. What is this based on? Are you correctly representing the views of publicans and pub customers, and EX publicans and EX pub customers, in your statements?
Or are you just not interested in the views of people who run and who (mostly used to) attend pubs?"
My pub spending has dropped dramatically since the smoking ban. What non-smokers fail to grasp is that a smoking pub is a joyful escape and a place of relaxation (to a smoker) but a non-smoking pub is a place of annoyance and frustration. I (and my friends) have stopped going and we are saving a small fortune. In fact we did some back of fag packet maths and between us since the ban we reckon we've saved 18,000 pounds. Thats money not going to the pubs. (Although Prague and Vienna have done quite well from us for occasional weekend smoking breaks). Please drill into him that the ban is very unpopular with some and has undoutedly contributed to the pub closures.
Oh.. and its not good enough to survey people in pubs and asking them 'do you like the smoking ban?'. Those that don't are not there...
I feel completely excluded, marginalised, and persecuted. All I ask is for a little space SOMEWHERE inside so that I can once again feel like a member of the UK and not a blot on the face of humanity. Accepting me for who I am and what I do is asking no more than anyone else from a minority group.
The stats show an immediate and significant increase in pub closures post-ban. Since other factors were constant, how can ministers deny that the smoking ban was critical to closures?
The smoking ban in Ireland started in March 2004. Ireland's pubs are nearly exclusively freehold, so no pubcos, that year they had a positive growth GDP of 7%, so no recession, supermarket alcohol is cheaper there too. Then why at the end of the first year did 25% of rural pubs close and 15% of urban pubs close? The excess in rural areas can be put down to crackdown on drinking and driving.
Source: Velvet Glove, Iron Fist A History Of Anti Smoking. Chris Snowdon.
I would ask the good minister to add putting ash trays on tables to the action list as this is clearly a very cheap way for many thousands of pubs to get more bums on seats.
I would ask him to place it on the action list above the action points that he felt would be less effective. I would then ask him why he thinks the ones that are below it are so much more worthy of being on the list.
What does Healy think of these independent studies which put at least half of pub closures down to the smoking ban.
http://uk.nielsen.com/news/SmokingBan.shtml
http://www.caterersearch.com/Articles/2008/06/30/321852/6000-pubs-face-closure-due-to-UK-smoking-ban.htm
I second what Mark says, especially when the only people the 'Survey People' ask questions like 'do you think the smoking ban was a success' are non smokers who have the privelige of sitting inside a pub.
When the real pub goers, the majority of whom are smokers, are not there, so they're not getting a proper census, only what suits their purpose.
Get across to them that the survey shams wont find the silent majority, who are smokers, in a pub nowadays and that they are no fools and know that all these surveys are a sham and financed by either Big Pharma or the Govt just like the YAWN 4million action plan which is just another PR exercise, the majority of which will not benefit the pubs, only their cute hoor advertising of it.
And tell them that real drinkers, who spend the money, are put off big time with the obnoxious smell of food since pubs have turned themselves into eating houses since the smoking ban.
Tell them for me, to shove the 4million up their arse unless they do the common sense thing and give smokers a PROPER INDOOR SMOKING AREA.
Simon, as a last resort, you could say "Let's just sort all this out over brandy and cigars?". In my experience, this way, it should take about half an hour to get it all sorted.
I would be grateful if you could bring to the Minister's attention the plight of the many penioners who smoke and have effectively been excluded from social interaction within the clubs and pubs during the winter months, as most of us find it impossible to face going outside in the cold.
Please remind him that this section of society started smoking during an era that actively encourage and promoted the enyoyment of cigarettes which was totally accepted socially, especially in our locals.
After all these years, is it really fair to suddenly change the rules so drastically and expect the elderly to face the extreme cold of winter several times during an evening out?
We just want to enjoy our social occasions with a drink and a smoke in a safe, warm and secure venue like we always have - what's wrong with that?
We had relied on our local pub or club to be a refuge in our autumn years to enjoy good cheer with old friends and new but the smoking ban has changed all that - please can we find a compromise?
Surely, with the advances of today's technology, it would not be unreasonable to ask and expect that an air-conditioned room be provided within the clubs and pubs.
Thank you...I hope the Minister will consider my plea.
Kind regards...
Pensioner Ellie
Simon, you should bring a copy of Pensioner Ellie's letter and show it to the Pub Minister.
If that doesent melt his heart it must be a swinging brick.
Could you ask him to give pensioners a dispensation and let them smoke indoors and remind him how older people are the most disenfranchised and forgotten citizen in this modern society.
As Ellie says we came from and era where smoking was socially acceptable and actively encouraged and promoted.
And tell him its like Hitlerism the way the govt is giving out mixed messages, like preventing us from smoking to save our health while at the same time taxing us because we're living too long.
Dear Ann...
Thank you for your kind message of support.
It has sometimes occured to me that smoking does not appear to be killing us off but hypothermia might be acheiveable if this law is not amended!
Best wishes...
Pensioner Ellie
Simon -
Just ask The Minister when Common Sense went out of fashion.
And why.
Good luck !!!
I would ask the minister why a smoker who has money to invest cannot buy a premise, hire some of the thousands of smoking barstaff who are either unemployed or would prefer to work in a smoking bar and put a great big sign over the door saying 'Beware- Smoking Bar. Enter at your peril.'
Perhaps you can ask the Pubs Minister John Healey why this government reneged on its ‘manifesto pledge’ not to bring in a blanket ban, and in fact touted a reasonable compromise instead. Had they said before the election in 2005 that a blanket ban was being brought in, then this would have cost them millions of votes, and in marginal seats, this would have proved devastating.
This spiteful piece of legislation has destroyed the social lives of millions of decent honourable people throughout our country. Elderly people in particular that enjoy smoking now have to suffer isolation from long standing friendships and the designation of a pariah status. No other section of society has been so marginalised in modern times.
If you were to persecute other minorities in this way, very quickly you would have civil disorder in our streets.
Many pubs, bars, restaurants and other public buildings went smoke free long before the ban came into force…so why the need for legislation?
This ban has never been about health…it’s about the denormalisation of smoking and smokers.
Adults are able to make decisions for themselves without state interference from reprehensible half-wit politicians.
Ask him why a former USSR controlled Eastern Bloc communist country is more democratic than the UK?
...............
Quote "The full public smoking ban was approved by the previous government in May 2009. It is supposed to ban smoking everywhere in Bulgaria, incorporating all restaurants, pubs, clubs, cafes and bars.
On February 18 2010, however, GERB MPs said they were ready with amendments aimed at qualifying the full ban on smoking because it could undermine Bulgaria's tourism and restaurant industry.
The news triggered negative reactions from NGOs and civil organisations but was supported by Prime Minister Boiko Borissov.
The amendments will be more flexible to enable restaurant and bar owners to comply with the ban.
The amendments stipulate that owners of bars and restaurants with an area of up to 100 sq m would be able to determine for themselves whether their premises should be non-smoking areas or not. Owners of facilities with an area of more than 100 sq m, however, will have to provide sections for non-smokers that have no direct link to the smokers' areas."
................
Note how they ignored pressure from NGO's and civil organisations (think ASH here) and listened to the citizens.
lt's a sad day when we are shamed about democracy from a former communist country!
I honestly don't see a problem with giving pubs the choice of have bars that are for smokers and bars for non smokers and dining areas still remaining as non smoking. The ban has taken all the fun out of actually going out to a pub and we certainly do not use them until the summertime when we can all sit outside.
The Labour Party Manifesto 2005 contains a deliberate lie as regards the smoking ban.
They said:
"We recognise that many people want smoke-free environments and need regulation to help them get this. We therefore intend to shift the balance significantly in their favour. We will legislate to ensure that all enclosed public places and workplaces other than licensed premises will be smoke-free. The legislation will ensure that all restaurants will be smoke-free; all pubs and bars preparing and serving food will be smoke-free; and other pubs and bars will be free to choose whether to allow smoking or to be smoke-free. In membership clubs the members will be free to choose whether to allow smoking or to be smoke-free. However, whatever the general status, to protect employees, smoking in the bar area will be prohibited everywhere."
But what we got was a TOTAL BAN!
Please could you ask where all the non-smokers are? You know, the ones who were going to flood back to the pubs when the ban came in?
I have to say since the smoking ban I have only been to the pub maybe three times, the problem as I see it, is that there was sections for smokers and non smokers and the non smokers could not keep out of the smoking section as this was the cheeriest place to be and they had to come in and have a nose and then start coughing!!. The three times I did venture to the pub it stank of peoples body odour so I went outside and had a drink and cigarette yet i was glared at the whole time i felt so uncomfortable that I havent been to any pub since...and they wonder why the pubs and clubs are closing...some common sense please....
For the record I am a non-smoker. My question would be :
Why will this government not allow pubs to choose to be either smoking or non-smoking premises? if the non-smoking environment turns out to be the 'good thing' that the propagandists claim, then people will gravitate to the non-smoking pubs and the others will either change their status or go out of business. However, I suggest the reason the government does not allow people to choose, is because they don't want people to have that freedom over their own lives. And that is an extremist, intolerant attitude which is not natural in this country. In fact, only a socialist regime would dare to impose its will in such a vindictive fashion.
You could ask him how the MPs bars in the house of commons are still allowed to smoke, could this be a case of do as I say not as I do. What makes them think they are above the law.
I would like to hear the minister explain why the government will mobilise ministers with fistfuls of subsidies to crawl all over foreign investors at either the whiff of a few hundred new jobs or the risk of a few hundred jobs being lost, but is happy to sit back and watch an estimated 24,000 domestic jobs lost over an ill-considered and bullying piece of legislation.
Please ask the minister why I have to sit and smoke outside my local pub in the cold while my dog is allowed to stay inside?
Ask him whether he and his colleagues get pleasure out of being Tin Hitlers.
Please ask the minister why, if the anti smoking ban is primarily to protect the health of non-smokers, this precludes having a separate air-conditioned room for smokers.
I don't go to pubs at all now unless it's warm enough to sit outside. Same for all my smoking friends.
I would like to ask why is it that many children are allowed to ruin a nice relaxing time in pubs eg weatherspoons in Godalming they have a large enough area for children and good ventilation. As a smoker we really feel pushed out . Whats wrong with opening patio doors and smokers areas? Many elderly people wish to smoke and cant as they are pushed in to the cold. This is a nanny knows best country.Yet does the government do anything to stop the thugs drinking? How about open a pub in each town for smokers? also improve on all areas as smoking places that were there.
Smoking is not illegal.This Government is always talking about 'consumer choice' or 'patient choice' in this or that, so why not allow us, as customers, some choice. I live in a rural area where many pubs have gardens (fine for the summer months but not in January).So we don't visit pubs in the winter, because there is no choice. Many local landlords have said they will willingly supply a ventilated room for smokers (and many of their bar-staff also smoke and have to brave the elements to have a cigarette). I have also seen a proposal to ban smokers from pub gardens. This would be a step far far too far. If the Government don't want to be seen as 'nannying' or deniers of civil liberties, why do they do this? At the behest of the anti-smoking lobby (yes, another lobby). I know of no-one who thinks the ban has been a success, and not publicans who go out of business. I hope some brave politician will repeal this spiteful and unnecessary ban (with appropriate safeguards`) soon.
At one time most pubs had a non smoking room/area, why could this not be the case now.We are a smoking family and never eat or drink out now, simply because we all like to smoke. None of my 28 year old sons go out they meet up in one of their houses so they can smoke when they want and not have to leave their drinks and any non smoking friends to go outside. My parents were non-smoking publicans and I know that they would have fought this ban
There is no solid proof of SHS how can you impose a ban on the grounds of a myth.
So many jobs have been lost to this pathetic ban.
Can you tell me why for the past 30 years smokers and smoking have been on the decrease yet asthma and other respatory problems have been on the increase.
I have my theory which i think is more probable than the governments,
Motor vehicles, the more cars on the roads the more respatory problems.
You can sit in a car and smoke 200 cigs and when you get out may have a dry throat.
Now try sit in the same car with a hose from the exhaust through the window see what happens then.
The government have bit off their nose to spite their faces.
Ban smoking, Alcohol prices rise considerably to counteract the loss in sales. pubs close loss in jobs.
Stop everyone Drinking too they have no alternative but to TAX Fuel even more so not only are the smokers suffering from this ban EVERYONE IS.
Excellent question from Jilly P. and letter from Pensioner Ellie. I'm not posting a question but recording a complaint..My son is mentally ill since the age of 14 and is now 52. Smoking is one of his almost non-existent pleasures. He has tried many times to stop because if he relapses and has to go in hospital again he will not be allowed to smoke. However, if he commits a crime worthy of a prison sentence he will be allowed.David Clelland and his party deserve to lose the election for their broken promises alone and need to put this election's manifesto (promises ?)where the sun doesn't shine.
Pensioner Aud
please mention to the Minister how the Ban has harmed many other Businesses as well,like my Taxi Business which saw a dramatic drop in trade overnight when the Ban came in losing many regular customers and obviously harms Takeaways and restaurants etc., who would of benefitted from these people being out?.
Does the minister recognise that this government's domineering intransigence has deprived the British people of more freedoms than terrorists ever could?
Does he also recognise that their claim that smoking costs the NHS is a blatant lie, when the various tobacco taxes/duty pay the entire NHS budget more than 4 times over?
Can he therefore appreciate that this government is considered an Arch-Nanny State by the British public and will be severely punished for its blind interferring diktats?
Also, mention the figures collated by Chris Snowden, last year ASH received 4,000 pounds odd from voluntary donatation while the blogoshere raised over 10k to release Nick Hogan. Also, ask why the govt gives ASH money! If they didn't have the state handout the discourse on this whole smoking issue would be far more even handed. (I'm sure you would have anyway Simon - keep up the excellent work).
Please ask the minister if human rights has been abolished for smokers only.
Never ever in my entire life have i smoked outdoors.Its degrading, but now i only have one choice and that is to stay at home.I used to enjoy meeting with friend twice a week for cofee or a pub meal but now things have changed.Where did my human rights go when this law was passed? I have no desire to upset none smokers or expect them to inhale my smoke but what i do expect is that some facilities are provided for those who wish to use them.
Would you also ask him where all the holier than thou non smokers have gone.If they wanted none smoking pubs, one would assume that the pubs would be heaving with these upstanding citizens now that they have there own way.Well i can assure him they arent.As far as we are concerned it nothing but a "witch hunt"and the sooner it changes we pensioners can be happier in our final years.
ask the minister if he is content with the fact that dying patients in our NHS are being forced of hosptital grounds to enjoy the comfort a cigarette may bring them in their last few weeks of life.
this inhuman act alone makes the ill thought smoking ban unfit for purpose when it should be possible a facility could be provided within the hospital grounds instead of this cruel treatment to folks who deserve any ease they may get at such a dire time
Governments are prone to cheap gimmicks and stunts. It makes their life so much easier, you see. Our job is to see through the smoke, so to speak, and hold them to account.So this crusade against smoking is nothing more but a cheap stunt intended to prove how busy the government is looking after its citizens. It is in the same category as saving Africa while your own pensioners are terrified to switch on the heating in the winter, or helping the orphans of Asia when many of the children in your own country live in poverty. It sort of makes you look cool and internationally aware, if you know what I mean, and does not really demand a lot of effort on your part. Not to mention that no one can really check whether you are doing a good job or not.
And with New Labour in particular what you have is a bunch of people with a gut hatred of individual freedom.
Labour state that they believe in a "Fair Society".
Which does the Minister believe to be the most Fair:
- A free choice for publicans, landlords and customers between Smoking and Non-Smoking options for their Pubs and Clubs?
..or..
- A blanket ban which forces smokers outside into inadequate or non-existent shelters in all weathers?
Can the Minister confirm the number of deaths in this country caused by passive smoking please.
Sir Richard Doll( who was largely credited with establishing the link between lung cancer and smoking) was asked about the dangers of passive smoking whilst appearing on Desert Island Discs in 2001. He responded 'the effects of other people smoking in my presence is so small it doesn't worry me'.
As we are always told this ban is EU wide, how come EU members, such as Spain (but there are many others) ignore the ban and allow smoking in pubs/bars. Please do not just deny this, as I have sat in these countries bars smoking. It has been explained it is fine to do so if the square meterage is below a certain figure. (and not a small figure) Who is lying to who?
If the law can't be amended for smokers then can there be one to make it illegal to bully smokers. Am I the only one to have suffered in this way almost every day since the smoking ban?
Like a lot of people I could ask many questions relating to how a law can be passed that is against the majority wishes of regular pub goers. However, I will limit myself to just one. "Where are the millions of people who the Government claimed did not go to pubs (prior to the ban) because of the nasty smokey atmosphere but very much wanted to go if they became smoke free"!! They sure as hell do not go to my local pubs.
Polititions own figures put the smoking population at 20 - 25%, Add to that partners, spouses etc and you get far more than vote in a government. Ask the minister why much smaller minorities have much greater influence on policy and decisions.
The ban has had a massive impact on pub closures all down to a creative "passive smoking" myth - like global warming scams ??
Here's a question. Why, when all other countries have / are considering ammendments to their bans, are the UK not? The TOTAL Ban was introduced to protect staff working within toatlly enclosed areas. Why can't we follow the lead of Germany (and others) and have well ventilated separate smoking areas? I for one will not visit any hospitality venue in the UK until this non-democratic, ESTIMATED-BASED law is ammended!
Playing Devil's advocate, wouldn't it make more sense convert all pubs to smoking clubs?
They could then sell a little alcohol on the side. That way, the smoke would be confined to those places that actually like it. Like me.
But wait! Isn't that what we used to have?
This whole problem has been brought about by a vile interfering government, imposing its dogma upon a fifth of the population (more people than voted for them in the first place) to solve a problem that didn't exist in the first place.
I gave up smoking in 1993 but I still went into pubs and accepted smoking as part of the life. Agreed eating areas were excluded where appropriate. If anyone really believes that Labour will change this should they win the election then they are in need of a brain. After the election our socialist MPs will ban smoking from all the grounds as well closing even more small businesses. Only one way out of this, get rid of this government!
Public places are, in my opinion, libraries, town halls etc - not privately owned premises -small cafes, restaurants, pubs and clubs etc. Why do we have to obey to the letter EU directives whilst everyone else says "If we don't like the law we ignore it" It is time we all stopped behaving like children and obeying nanny and voted only for people with common sense.After all if smoking makes you ill we have certainly paid for it in taxes many times over.
Most points seem to have been covered, but I quarrel with the term "government funding" - that is only giving us back a tiny fraction of our own money, thank you not very much.
And whatever conclusions are reached, if any at a one-off meeting, remember there is a General Election coming up and Healey and his pals will say anything, and tell any lie to hang on to office - then change their minds again, just as they did before.
- from another non-smoker who thinks the current law is just plain wrong and downright unethical.
Having worked most of my life with adults with learning disabilities i find it disgusting that these individuals who cannot fight for themselves are now expected to go outside to have a smoke.In a lot of cases they arent able to access the garden without the help of staff who are now being told they dont have to take them out if they dont want.The sad fact is that we at least can (up to press) smoke in our own homes but dictatorship from care providers are refusing to let them smoke in their homes, quoting health and safety laws as their reason.What the hell is happening to this country? Where has the live and let live attitude gone? We have lost compassion,respect,and understanding for people.May God forgive you for the individual suffering that this ban has caused.