Questions for the pub minister
Monday, March 29, 2010 
Blogging will be light today. Tomorrow I've got a meeting with pubs minister John Healey so I shall be spending most of the day preparing for that. Also at the meeting: Greg Knight MP (Conservative) and David Clelland MP (Labour).
On March 18 Healey announced a 12 point action plan to give practical support to community pubs up and down the country, backed by £4million in government funding. Needless to say, amendments to the smoking ban don't feature.
If there is a question - or some relevant fact - you would like me to put to the minister, please comment here.
Update: Anti-smoke ban MPs to meet Healey (Morning Advertiser)
Smokers' lobby group to meet pubs minister (The Publican)
Simon Clark
Thank you for all your comments - much appreciated and very useful. There has been an interesting development which I will tell you about when I get a moment. Watch this space.
Reader Comments (147)
I agree so much with the above comments, especially re. feeling marginalised and outcast. I'm in my sixties and feel I should have control over how I wish to live. I believe that in Spain bars can decide as to whether or not they apply a smoking ban. Why can't that happen here?
On a different point, travel is a nightmare with no provision for smokers anywhere. I long to see my two children in London (neither of whom are smokers, incidentally) but can't face the journey. Five hours of stress (if I'm lucky and the trains are running etc. etc.) without a ciggie? I've a cupboard full of nicotine replacement medication and it's more disgusting than cigarettes.
Please let's have a bit of common sense. I could kill myself drinking, driving, hang gliding, caving, doing any number of dangerous sports and cost the NHS just as much. I choose to smoke.
I'm with Ellie - I'm in the age group when we used to get 5 senior service/players cigs in our Government paid armed forces survival packs.
Might I suggest that an appropriate question would be "What has happened to our freedom of choice in this country?" I'm not just talking about my freedom of choice, but am also talking about the freedom of choice that any business owner has to run his or her business in a fashion that allows survival.
My local pub is a well appreciated social centre for the village in which I live, and despite the fact that both the landlady and her husband are non-smokers, they both remark that they would love the pub smoking ban to be repealed so they have enough customers to survive through the winter.
Would it be so ridiculous to allow them to make a choice whether their pub is a "smoking" or "non-smoking" pub? (There is another pub two doors away that could well choose to be the opposite.)
I feel sure that our hosts would be happy to put up a nuclear hazard warning sign to prevent inadvertent intrusion by non-smokers, and a sign warning of the threat of being trampled by regular smoking customers making their way inside.
I applaud any measure that allows non-smokers to enjoy an environment that is smoke-free, but feel that the judgement of services offered by a local pub should be shouldered by the business owner - not the beurocrats.
Whichever business owner makes the wrong call will surely suffer closure, and the ones that make the right call will be supported by market demand.
Mjg:- Lord Stoddart of Swindon wrote to me pointing out that 'the government does not record deaths by smoking', so there can be no information concerning supposed death by SHS.
I have asked this question many times over, to the point of boredom.
How many people were killed last year by SHS, how are these figures recorded, and how can they be verified by autopsy evidence?
No one from ASH UK, ASH Scotland, CRUK, British Heart Foundation the NHS or the government under the FOI act could supply an answer to this question.
I think we all know why.
You could ask the government minister if this package is designed to be truly helpful or a good sound bite as the help for home owners was [which helped a grand total of 12 to 15 households]....
Given this opportunity - is the government 'help' for pubs to try to come to terms with the smoking ban or is it an initiative to see if 'trial pubs' could have air cleaners in to 'see how they go...'
I used to go if not more than once a week to my local and interact with friends and even complete strangers and in this way my society was strengthened - as a pipe smoker I now go less than bimonthly and I am sure that part of society's problems come from the fact that we are not willing to rub up against each other in our differences any more.
Good point about the crackpot terrorising of second hand smoke - listened with interest to Sir Richard Doll...
Just ask him:-
Which particular section of EU legislation prevents the UK from overturning the Smoking Ban ?
If there isn't any, then it can be overturned at the stroke of a Ministerial pen- if there is, that's one more good reason for getting out (as if we needed any more rasons).
The smoking ban is also destablising our cultural and political system. I have just come back from a meeting where I am told the BNP is gaining huge strength in council estate constituencies because of their promises on this issue. I will not mention the "other" party that is attracting former traditional voters like me because of this issue. If the BNP gain seats in parlt it will be the fault of the big three who are ignoring one fifth of this country who would normall vote Lab or Tory.
I am using a pretend name as you will see. This is because when the real obama came to the G8summit he was aloud to smoke.Every law was broken to allow this powerful man the pleasure of a fag whenever he desired. I can only assume that he has access to a safe cigarette which when inhaled would not harm anyone in his company.Well lets get some of them then we all will be happy.Alternatively lets all use his name and power and put two fingers up to our dictators.
I am a seven years ex-smoker. I have NO PROBLEM with being in a pub with smokers in the bar area. Why did the government go against its original plans to leave it to pub owners how they implement a smoking ban? Why - because Labour know best what is best for you. me and my dog as well.
As a result of this ridiculous legislation, thousands of pubs (which Labour don't seem to realise are businesses, employing people and paying tax revenue to HMRC) have been put out of business.
In a recession.
Minister. Your comments on the above, please.
Just ask him to show you proof of the increase in people's health or how many lives have been saved since the smoking ban.
This is what the BNP has to say on the smoking ban, always labour's soft spot.
"For a start we’d end the smoking ban, abolish business rates for pubs, slash the duty on beer served in licensed premises."
"The impact of the smoking ban on public houses has been well publicised.."
"http://bnp.org.uk/2009/05/bnp-mails-election-appeal-to-32000-pubs/
.
http://bnp.org.uk/2009/03/exposed-labour%E2%80%99s-war-of-attrition-against-the-british-pub/
DON'T IGNORE THE LOST TAXES. In addition to job losses, a pub closure of means that the treasury and local authority lose a significant amount of income. A quantity of liquor purchased through corner shops and supermarkets will generate less than a fifth in taxes than an equivalent amount sold through a pub. A pub property put to alternate use (usually housing), will generate significantly less in council tax.
As a conservative estimate, the 5747 pubs that closed since the smoking ban represent a loss to the country of: 58,000 jobs, £190m of VAT & NI and £38m of rates.
Why has the Government impinged on people's freedom: the freedom to go to a pub or club which allows smokers, or to a different pub or club for non-smokers?
You have taken the freedom of choice away from the citizens of this country. Please give us back this freedom.
Fredrik Eich wrote, "Simon, as a last resort, you could say "Let's just sort all this out over brandy and cigars?". In my experience, this way, it should take about half an hour to get it all sorted."
Especially if the Antismokers were locked in there until the sorting was done. :>
I would also suggest printing, binding as suggested, and distributing copies of the New Stiletto to them. It will provide both ammunition for our supporters and perhaps also raise some questions in the minds of the more open-minded about how much they can trust the "official" information they are being given in support of smoking bans. The New Stiletto can be found and freely downloaded at:
http://encyclopedia.smokersclub.com/257.html
and it would also give you the advantage of being able to say that it is from a source that is known to be totally independent from any industry support. While its clearly one-sided in its argument, all of its facts are accurate and their presentation is honest.
Michael J. McFadden,
Author of "Dissecting Antismokers' Brains"
- MJM
It is interesting how smokers tend to be more pacifist. Smoking is relaxing and helps stress as well as helping concentration. Why are the benefits not portrayed more ? Interesting how people who cannot now smoke will subsitute with food...Both food induced obesity and stress levels have shot up since the ban ! Perhaps smoking should be advertised as a health AID.
My question however is this...at the very least allow smoking indoors during winter months. There is no question that smokers have been unfairly penalised. Isnt this against human rights ?
Following the decision of the German Supreme Court to force the legislature to re-consider, it is only a matter of time before the European Court of Human Rights decides that total bans are untenable. Then the UK govt will be forced to amend the law. Which will cost the taxpayer even more, while in the meantime more outlets will go under.
Also, many of the smokers who used to frequent pubs and clubs now smoke at home over a few cans bought at the supermarket, and in many cases with their children in the house. At least in the pub/club it is less likely that the children would be present. It is not good enough to tell them they are irresponsible, because they will do it regardless.
The biggest cause of death in the UK is heart disease. The spending on anti-smoking campaigns is disproportionate...I don't see many TV ads telling people to use less salt or eat less burgers.
Ask him either to allow pubs the choice of being for smokers or non smokers, or to bring back smoking rooms. As long as smoking rooms have warning notices to non-smokers and have extractor fans they should be acceptable. The loss of jobs (and pubs) however, is NOT acceptable!
The current claims by the anti-smoking zealots appears to suggest that they are doing this " for the sake of the children". I would therefore like to ask why this law can not be amended with particular reference to pubs as they are catering for adults who are old enough to make a choice of whether to go to a smoking venue or not and where children should not be allowed simply because they are too young to buy or consume alcohol.
Another pensioner with a lost social life am I.
Obviously I was a child when about 75% of the population smoked.
And,guess what?
I am still alive!
Did Patricia Hewitt lobby for pharmaceutical companies which wanted to sell their anti-smoking products?
All I want to ask a politician is How can you call this ban a success? From what I have read it seems the only success criteria quoted is compliance. I comply, I am law abiding, but I can see the ban has destroyed pub businesses, cost jobs, cost the Treasury and more or less ostracised 20% of society.
If this is Success what criteria are needed for it to be deemed a failure?
me.my daughter take a widowed old lady.aged 76 with us to 2 different clubs to enjoy bingo and the free and easys.but since the smoking ban .she has agreed the only party worth voting for is the bnp.we are sick of this bullying goverment taking away our social life.even non-smokers come outside so they have some company.and they do not agree with the smoking ban.non-smokers were going to fill the pubs and clubs when the smoking ban came in.this never happened.most people are staying at home. buying cheaper drinks and enjoying a smoke .LIFT THE THE SMOKING BAN. and let us british people have our social lives back.before it's too late for all of us. non-smokers will be paying the price through other tax methods.to recover the lost tobacco revenue
As it's OBVIOUS that the smoking ban has caused the downfall of our pubs, and as it's OBVIOUS that it can easily be put right for both workers and drinkers by creating smoking and non-smoking pubs; can it be that the Labour Party are quite happy to see our pubs completely closed down? People are still smoking and drinking at home, so the government is still collecting it's taxes. Think of all the housing that can be built on these sites. Labour cares so little about the plight of the pubs, there must be method to their madness. It's a tragedy.
How is the £4 million pounds to be spent? Get the ashtrays back out and spend the money somewhere else.... our troops perhaps?
My questions to the Minister are.
1. Will the Minister suggest to the DoH that
it MUST include in it's review of the
Smoking Ban an INDEPENDANT SCIENTIFIC
INVESTIGATION into modern AIR FILTRATION
SYSTEMS and the setting up of an INDOOR
AIR QUALITY STANDARD.
This is very good the LVA Wales.
Pub operators are keen to accommodate non-smokers better 80% of pub operators want improvements to be made to accommodate staff and non-smokers better – but they are strongly opposed to the outright ban as discussed by the Assembly. Only 8% want a full ban with 72% proposing that the outlets should be split
into smoking and non-smoking areas or rooms."
The importance of smokers to the industry. In this relatively traditional community market
customers who choose to smoke are a very important part of the business. 68% of licensees believe that over half of their ‘regular’ customers (who visit at least
twice a week) are smokers – 37% of them believe
that three quarters or more of their regulars smoke. Although there are slightly more non-smokers among the general pub-goers – only 33% estimate that this proportion is less than half."
http://www.airinitiative.com/docs/LVWales_Smoke_out_the_Truth.pdf
You know it's so ironic...
When I was very young, I was banned from going into the pub because I was a child (quite right too - the pub was and always should be an adults 'playground').
Now I am very old I am banned from the pub because I smoke!
Please bring back those happy middle years when I could smoke, drink and socialise in peace!
Please amend this law...
Pubs and bars need reclassifying as either smoking or non-smoking. This would be at the the discretion of the owner or landlord, as appropriate.
The net result (I estimate) would probably mean that we end up with around 80% of the current pub stock as smoke-free with no change to the way they are today. The remainder would survive purely on supply and demand. If enough customers wanted to smoke and bar staff were either happy to work in a smokey environment or were smokers themselves then a landlord should be free to choose how he/she wishes to run their premises.
If 50% of pubs became 'smoking pubs' then so be it. If 10% became 'smoking pubs' then so be it. But let the market decide and let people decide. The current regulations were drafted by a majority of non-smokers who aren't necessarily representative of the pub going community at large.
Let the market self regulate and there will be enough establishments to keep both the smokers and non-smokers (reasonably) happy.
Nick
I too have saved a small fotune since the ridiculous ban. I smoke in my own house & drink beer bought from supermarkets, I would love to go back to pubs and don't mind paying the prices when you can smoke but I refuse to go into pubs now, they have become souless since the ban. I live in Wirral, about a quarter of the pubs in the area have closed since the ban, still those in authority refuse to connect this with the smoking ban. Watch out! Cars are the next target, since the ban all smokers seem to smoke in their cars because it is the last bastion. Good luck with campaign, let's hope it's not too late. Geoff
Two questions for the minister:
1) How many thousand more pubs is he prepared to force out of business?
2) What ever happened to the government's pledge of 'evidence-based policy-making'?
If you examine ALL the relevant studies, the 'risk' of SHS is clearly 'policy-based evidence-making'. On the other hand, ample evidence is there (including that from Ireland and Scotland pre-recession) to warrant a change of policy.
A finely poised election is only weeks away.
Ask the Minister if he seriously expects any smokers or publicans (or their friends & families) to vote for the Parties that voted 85% in favour of the TOTAL ban, when a fair compromise was promised in the manifesto.
Labour Total Ban votes: 85%
LibDem Total Ban votes: 85%
Tory Total Ban votes: 25%
(p.s. I've never been a tory, but guess who's not getting my vote THIS time!).
Dear minister ,for over twenty years smoking rates fell year on year,but after the smoking ban, rates are now for the first time in twenty years rising ,and drunkenness is growing rapidly in the home,as is domestic violence,all because you reneged on your manifesto promise of choice for pubs/clubs,to allow a separated area for smokers ,why should i vote for you when you don't keep your promises
This smoking ban is to partly bring us inline with europe right, i dont want to be european i rather stay as i am British,some euro countries totally ignore the ban and carry on smoking in bars, i think britain is one ofthe few countries sticking to it 100%, smoking and drinking has always gone hand in glove for centuries, its a way of life,reverse the law before there is no pubs left at all and England is totally sunk by idiot do gooders, smoking areas inside would have been quite adequate.... jon
Please ask the Rt. Hon. Mr. Healey whom he thinks is better qualified to run our lives, US or the Labour Party?
Who is better qualified to decide what is best for our kids, PARENTS or the Labour Party?
Why does he think there are "acceptable levels" of
CO2,
Toxic Sulphur Dixode,
Toxic Nitrous Oxides,
Ground-level Ozone,
Toxic Carbon Monoxide,
Carcinogenic Diesel particulates
Radioactive Radon Gas
etc.etc.etc.
..in our air, but the only acceptable level of SHS is ZERO?
Does he think this is HYPOCRITICAL?
Has he been (as I have) to locations in the more reasonable US states where ADEQUATE ventilation is used to clear smoking areas, to see just how effective ventilation can be?
ordinary taxpaying folk are fed up with being parented in this patronising way,as adults we should be enjoying the privalege of choice we are quite capable of compromise and reasonable rational thought I now make the choice to stay home to smoke in warmth and comfort rather than go out, which i consider a bit of a chore as it is not enjoyable to me, this has of late been extended to holidaying in hotels, - we are currently saving for a campervan!!!
l do hope that you record this meeting but saying that l don't believe for one moment that the minister will say anything constructive whatsoever.
We are supposed to be in EU but only 2 countries in EU have complete smoking ban. Us and lreland (home of the smuggler).
it's real shame to see pubs and clubs loosing customers due to smoking ban.whole pub culture is to socilize with the friends and mates having a pint and a smoke.it may work the in the countries have a cafe culture not in the u.k.this is a country pub life is the centre of the socity in rural places.
What other cultural, racial, religious or other minority in Britain are specifically banned from doing what they want in an environment of consenting adults?
Why are we forbidden to smoke in pubs when MPs are allowed to smoke in the House of Commons bars?
let him read all these comments.he gets paid enough
Q1 would you like a cigar?
Q2 Is ther real reason behind the smoking ban in pubs that as a card carrying marxist you detest places where people can congregate and discuss things that are no controlled by the poliotburo?
Why does the smokoing ban exclude palaces that are open to the public and/or places of work?
I now no longer visit my local,I now brew my own beer and grow my own tobacco.
Damned; if I am going to pay excise duty on somthing I cannot enjoy in comfort.
As an widowed older lady smoker I am now taking anti-depressants due to social isolation. Most of my elderly friends are smokers and refuse to stand outside in the street to smoke a cigarette. We come from an era when it was just 'ladies of the night' that stood on street corners smoking. We would feel humiliated if we did the same.
The consequence is that my lady friends and myself now sit at home in isolation. We used to travel to nice pubs for lunch, a drink, a chat and a smoke. I have not been in a social environment in 3 years, hence the depression.
This spiteful ban is hitting older people hard and making us feel like lepers for enjoying a legal substance.
Where are the choices that our Fathers and Grandfathers fought and died for Minister ?
I am a smoker and do agree that the defult setting of most public areas should be non-smoking. One might need to go to a shopping centre and not want to encounter tobacco smoke. But for those places I freely choose to enter or work in (such as a pub), the choice should still remain.
Presently I choose to visit a pub only rarely, entirely due to the smoking ban.
Why is it not possible to compromise with smoking and non-smoking pubs and clubs as implemented in most EU countries? We have the most draconian anti-smoking laws in the world.
I wish you the best in dealing with this pub minister, but the simple fact remains there would have been no need for a pub minister and a frittering of another few millions IF the smoking ban had not be introduced in the first place.
New Labour can go to hell - the most objectionable government in recent history. It makes you look back at Thatcher's time in power as the good old days!!
Dear Sir,
Please ask the minister why the NHS was allowed to lead an attack on smokers in a policy document, which contained an intention of banning smoking in public places, well ahead of the election manifesto that promised only a partial ban, and why this policy document was not alluded to during that election campaign?
Could you also ask the minister how it is that the NHS was allowed to deliberately ignore the only complete study of passive smoking, which was undertaken by the World Health Organisation? This study drew upon all studies carried out in the world, and essentially concluded that there was no proof of the dangers of passive smoking, one way or the other, as all the evidence was conflicting.
Then, given the above, could the minister explain how it was, that this unelected NHS was allowed to to use its power and deliberately skewed "evidence" to wield undue influence on our elected parliamentarians?
Could it be that the Labour government are so in awe of their "great creation" of the NHS, that they cow-tow to it, to the extent that they are prepared to sacrifice our civil liberties on its altar?
Personally, I'd rather live in Germany, where "patients" are "customers" and where their health system, despite being significantly more succesful at healing than ours is, actually knows its place.
Yours faithfully,
Marcus J. Swift.
As as person who chooses to smoke, I feel completely marginalised by the smoking ban and never go into pubs now. My ex-local pub used to be thriving but now it is almost empty with no atmosphere and, according to the Landlord, non smokers have started sitting outside with the smokers so that they have someone to talk to.
Before the last general election, the government said they would allow "wet pubs" where people could smoke but, just before the vote in the commons, they changed their minds and decided on a total ban. What kind of democracy is this? The government should be held accountable for misleading the electorate in this way.
The Labour Party in particular seem to have an intense hatred of smoking and want a complete nanny state. There is no reason, apart from sheer spite, why pubs cannot have well ventilated smoking rooms for customers who wish to smoke. It is very simple, if you don't like smoke, don't go into the smoking room.
The pub staff would not have to enter the smoking room during opening time so the health and safety argument does not stand up either.
Smokers really are the last group of people who can be openly discriminated against.
What is wrong with having "smoking" pubs and restaurants,and "no smoking" pubs and raetaurants. Tobacco is a legal product, so why shouldn't the owner of a business decide whether all, part, or none of his premises can be used for smoking?
What right does the government have to put people out of business?
Simon, please give me a ring tomorrow morning - 0116 2997760
The blanket smoking ban was implemented to close down as many meeting places as possible for ordinary British citizens, so that they cannot congregate and show dissent - after all, people like Guy Fawkes did their plotting in London ale houses! It is part of the social engineering project to destroy the traditional way of life and culture of the people of Britain and control them simultaneously. Please tell the Ministers that there are some people who have already worked this out, and others who are beginning to wake up. The British working classes have been badly treated by this government, and now they have started on the middle classes (through issues such as taxation). Very many middle class people and others are unhappy about the blanket smoking ban, but it's the traditional 'working class' places (wet pubs, cafés, bingo halls and working mens' clubs) which are suffering the most. There are still approximately 40 establishments closing per week - if the smoking ban was a huge success, why all the closures?
Why can't it be a matter of choice? Some pubs could allow smoking, in which case smokers would go there and other pubs which would make it clear that there's was a non-smoking establishment and the non-smokers would go there. A simple solution but unfortunately freedom of choice has gone the way of freedom of speech under this Dictatorship of a government.
PS - Closing down our pubs is yet another way for the Labour Dictatorship to destroy the British Way of Life - after all Muslims don't like alcohol and we mustn't upset them must we!