What future for the great British pub?
Tuesday, February 23, 2010 This morning I am going to a Private Members' Debate in Westminster Hall (in the Palace of Westminster) on the subject 'The Future of the British pub'.
The debate is sponsored by Conservative MP Nigel Evans, vice-chairman of the All Party Beer Group. Writing for ePolitix.com ahead of the debate, Evans argued:
The smoking ban, low supermarket prices, constant tax hikes and higher running costs of pubs including some problems with pricing through the tie has pushed many pubs over the edge. Some would argue that there was a need for thinning the pub estate, but the last few years has seen a severe culling of the numbers. Some villages have no pubs, and others are under threat.
Unless we look carefully and quickly at what has happened and why, and then address the problems that exist - the future for the British pub is bleak. Ministers must look and listen, but then they must act. Taking the pub for granted has got us to where we are.
Full article HERE.
Reader Comments (38)
Good luck, Simon !
Perhaps - in time - the Soft Men in the Tory Party will grow some balls back.
The Hard Women in NuLabour will re-learn the Art of Compassion.
And the Woodentops everywhere will 're-connect' with their brains.
In time.
Assuming we have any left................
You never know I am an optimist.
Maybe sometime in the future I may visit a Pub again.
It has been 2 years and seven months since I did so.
In fairness to the Tories I know they did not support the ban to the same extent as the Dirty Filthy Theiving Lying party,(Labour to their minions).
A review of the smoking ban is due later this year (July, I believe) - however, if Andy Burnham and others decide to extend the ban to entrances and beer gardens, there will probably be very few pubs,clubs etc. left to save.
One of the objectives of the smoking ban was to destroy British working class cultue. Close the pubs, bingo halls, working mens and veterans clubs and drive the street corner cafe out of business.
We will have only nice coffee shops, overpriced restaurants and wine bars if you please and the great unwashed, unwantte and unregarded can stand on the street and stare longingly through the plate glass windows.
You are being excluded from your own society. They'll have your money, but they would really rather not have your company.
They never had or wanted the company of the kind of humourous comradery of the working mens Pubs anyhow they would not even step inside one would they.
They only conclusion I can draw is that it was an act of viscious spitefull class hatred.
Heretic and Specky - spot on. I commented on a Daily Mail article yesterday about social engineering - the intention to close down as many meeting places as possible. I didn't specifically mention the working classes, but it's so obvious that they are excluding the working class(es) from society, by trashing their traditional meeting places. I just personally don't feel comfortable or relaxed in some of these wine bar and twee café places as I am a more earthy, down-to-earth kind of person. Yes, more and more people will be on the outside, looking in. Someone mentioned to me recently the term, 'social murder'. I hadn't heard it before, but that's how all this comes across to me. Social murder.
Your post, Heretic, makes our society sound exactly like that old TV programme, "The Prisoner"
Remember the slogan of the hero in that, "I am not a prisoner..I am a free man"
And that is what we should all be standing up and saying, or maybe shouting!
Sounds like they are putting something in your water over there in the Federal Republic of what used to be Great Britain. Whatever happened to freedom of speech there? You guys used to lead the world once? You have what should be a great site there, but when censorship steps in with a mighty jackboot, as it sounds like has done there, then what hope is there for people like me who thought it was tough here in the good ol' US of A?
The Great British pub is dying. The mainstream politicians are killing it because they hate anything that is British. They are waiting for smoker's pubs to die so that there will be no dissent and everyone will then enjoy the Euro style gastro pubs,full of screaming kids, without complaint.
Yes, this whole Anti-Smoking Culture rather puts me in mind of those unintentionally amusing 'Lifebuoy Toilet Soap' commercials of my childhood, back in the Sixties:
FIRST MAN: "I say, SHE's a bit of a corker. Wouldn't mind going out with HER !"
SECOND MAN: "I wouldn't, Old Chap."
FIRST MAN: "Why ever not ?"
SECOND MAN (In Stage Whisper) :"B.O."
FIRST MAN: "Never mind. I'm a Closet Homosexual, anyway."
(Made that last bit up)
Thus did many a promising relationship founder on the rock of Socially-Unacceptable Body Odour.
Thank goodness we're far too sophisticated to fall for such crude manipulation these days..................
Specky -
I'm in the same boat.
Martin's Simple Formula:
If the Tories won't 're-visit' the Smoking Ban, then I won't 're-visit' the pub.
This, however, can then be tactically re-worked by the Nay-Sayers into Something Clever. Such as:
"SELFISH SMOKERS TO BLAME FOR PUB CLOSURES, SAYS TORY SPOKESMAN." (Daily Mail)
Only jokin'.
I think...................
Well said Heretic, I think you have hit the nail very firmly on the head with your post.
The picture in my mind is one of Dickensian times when the rich were eating, smoking and have a grand old time whilst those less fortunate could, at best, just peer in through the windows.
@Martin
Not the Daily Mail but the Publican, the comments are good too.
"Hamish Champ: Ironically, belligerent smokers are helping to close pubs
23 March, 2009
By Hamish Champ
'Boycotting pubs because they won't - can't - let you smoke in them is the biggest example of cutting off your nose to spite your face I've ever come across'
http://www.thepublican.com/story.asp?storyCode=63168
To Jenny of Yorkshire.
If the smoking ban is extended to doorways and gardens we should all ignore it. If we do it will fail miserably. If we don't then we deserve all we get. We obey the current law because of the cost to others if we infringe it. Smoking outside, in streets, in parks, in gardens only affects us. If we make a stand then the proposed spiteful and vindictive Burnham law is unenforceable. And that is as it should be.
Great article Dave. This man is clearly a prat and has no understanding of why smokers do not go to the pub. It is not a boycott-it is a choice. We will not spend our hard earned cash on an expensive pint to sit outside in the cold. We will sit at home or go to friend's houses and have our smoke and drink in peace.
We do not moan when pubs close because we do not go to them anymore!!! We do not care about them. We may say I told you so but everybody blames everything bar the smoking ban for the closures anyway.
This is not about individual publicans but the brewing industry overall. They thought they would make more money from families and diners and that smokers would still turn up to spend money and huddle outside. They were greedy and wrong and now the chickens have come home to roost. There may be the odd publican who tried to defend the rights of smokers but most were glad to see the ban or said nothing. I have very little sympathy and my nose is still where it always has been.
I completely agree with you Grumpybutterfly. However, (a) if they do decide to extend this spiteful legislation and (b) they actually decide to introduce fines for non-compliance re: entrances/beer gardens etc. including penalties for licensees/publicans, then - what is the next step? Years ago, I for one never imagined things would have gone as far as they have gone (complete indoor ban plus fines and penalties). I just have a suspicion that this will be the next step. This won't be about 'protecting the bar staff from the effects of second-hand smoke' stuff. This will be about bullying, being spiteful and controlling others because they can.
All the emphasis upon food and dining will turn out to be a waste of energy. As food prices rise and people lose their jobs, they won't be able to afford to eat out anyway. The main objective of all this is to close down as many places as possible to stop people congregating - one aspect of social engineering.
Dave A -
Thanks for the correction !
And it was very wrong of me, of course, to single out the 'Mail' - when it's proven SUCH a sturdy champion of our freedoms.
Sorry I can't say more right now - but Cheryl Cole's just announced her separation from Ashley.
And I've been put on Suicide Watch............
Martin V - don't you have a comment to make about Tiger Woods or John Terry while you are on 'suicide watch'?!! After all, these items are of vital importance to the people of this country! :)
A senior Tory waved a doughnut around in the Commons chamber as he sought to illustrate the high calorie content of alcoholic drinks.
Opposition whip Michael Fabricant (Lichfield) brandished the snack as he told MPs a pint of lager contained more calories.
Lets be honest, the Lab/Lib/Con Junta will leave YOU**
with Starbucks,Wetherspoons and Mc Donalds.
Either get your act together or sniff the Levazzi
Cheers
Organ Grinders Monkey
** You.............not me
Its a wonder how Big Govt noticed that pubs are disappearing/have disappeared in the first place.
I thought they were still getting off on their success with the smoking ban.
I go along with Jenny, the paranoid bastards dont want us congretating in pubs in case we'd get ideas, thinking is too dangerour and cannot be allowed in this 21st century of enlightenment only permitted by our govt masters.
Maybe they want us to be more like the muslims (there's a lot of votes there after all).
I hope the people give the 3 Stoogies, Lab/ Lib/Cons, a good kick up the arse at the next election.
They're all tarred with the one brush.
Jenny,
The Burnham boys may be able to issue a fine to publicans if we smoke in their designated gardens. But outside, in the streets, I doubt it. It is all down to our own resistance. In all the doorways of all the high streets. And, if you believe what is written, within 25 metres of them. Such legislation, if it ever comes about, could see the demise of smoking bans. Give folks enough rope and they will, one day, hang themselves. Burnham proves it.
Jenny,
The Burnham boys may be able to issue a fine to publicans if we smoke in their designated gardens. But outside, in the streets, I doubt it. It is all down to our own resistance. In all the doorways of all the high streets. And, if you believe what is written, within 25 metres of them. Such legislation, if it ever comes about, could see the demise of smoking bans. Give folks enough rope and they will, one day, hang themselves. Burnham proves it.
My computer is clearly even more incensed than me at Burnham's ludicrous proposal. It has posted my latest message twice. Sorry folks.
I know a hung parliament would be the worst thing for our country.
BUT - how worse can our country get. If she needs to hit rock bottom to realise where she actually is, then so be it. The electorate have to be cruel to be kind as far as I'm concerned.
Bring on a hung parliament and trash the do-gooders once and for all is what I say.
The economy and NHS (National Death Service, if you ask me) may be high on a lot of people's minds, but it isn't high on my agenda. Since I began work back in 1982 I have been screwed by all of them, but at least I have been able to choose how to live.
Luckily, as a smoker I haven't had to personally experience the NHS, except over child-birth, but I know many who have and their experiences were horrendous.
All I see now is spin, propaganda, quangos etc coming from the main 3 parties. We need a revolution and perhaps a hung parliament may be the start of it.
Sorry to be a bit off-topic, but it is how the comments have gone.
As far as the pub is concerned - I don't frequent them anymore as they can no longer offer a safe and comfortable environment for me. They also no longer offer entertainment as I've yet to see artistes appearing outdoors in sub-zero temperatures.
Could anyone please advise why anyone who is just thrown outdoors should bother going to one?
It is noticeable that the three events in the last two posts have something in common. In the latest, Evans MP hosts a discussion about pub closures; in the previous post, Maude MP (chairman of Tory party) asks if the word ‘tobacco’ on the banned internet sites list includes Forrest; in the original question (re banned sites list), Shapps MP asked what sites were banned by whoever. Do we notice that all these events came from Tory MPs?
I wonder if anything can be read into this? That is are the Tories beginning to see that there are 15 million voters out there who are smokers and are fed up with being victimised? Wouldn’t it be wonderful if that were true? I await developments with interest.
Junican -
Let us fervently hope so.
NOW is clearly the time to start BOMBARDING the Tories (esp in the marginals) with paper.
If Electoral Cynicism achieves what Principled Conviction could not - then, so be it.
But we STILL need a Revolution - of the 1688 variety.
But WHO shall be OUR William-and-Mary ?
(No offence to any Catholics here)
I totally agree with you Martin V, we do need a revolution. Not too good on history, but if the 1688 one was one that really made a difference, then bring it on!
If I knew how to go about starting a revolution and getting the backing for one, I would be doing it, sadly I am not that clever, devious or brave!
Junican, the only thing to be read into it is the fact that 15million voters might go AWOL on them.
Very suspect that this mock concern is filtering on to the airwaves now that an election is nigh.
Dont fall for it, because its all in the game!
Ann
February 24, 2010 at 11:35
I agree statements released by Tories against the Bans only seem to appear on Blogs.
It's a ruse.
Well, Specky et al,
You may be right, and, believe me, I have no great expectations. Here, however, is an interesting idea.
I have just received a circular from our prospective Tory candidate today.
Our current MP is Ruth Kelly - the one who seems to have totally disappeared since she ceased to be a Minister - no doubt looking after her kids and still being paid a salary and still claiming her expenses.
I am going to write to him -literally, a letter not an email! I am going to tell him that I am disillusioned by the expenses scandal and that, if he wants me to vote for him rather that UKIP or the BNP, I would like him to tell me what he intends to do about the erosion of our liberty and freedoms. I will make a point of mentioning the smoking ban, but not so much about our freedom to smoke but rather about the freedom of publicans to allow us to smoke in their premises.
Sometimes we become confused about the nature of the smoking ban. The really important think about the ban is not that individual smokers are affected (since one is not forbidden to smoke), but that free individuals are not allowed to permit smoking in their own premises. That is the crux of the matter. Not only that, but the fines are far, far in excess of the 'harm' which might result from committing the offence. It is not unlike Judge Jeffreys hanging people for stealing a sheep - the principle involved is the same (regardless of the actual seriousness of the offence, in itself), MAKE A BIG PUBLIC DISPLAY. The House of Lords actually pointed out that the penalty was far in excess of the offence, but without effect.
I have asked myself (as I am sure that we all have), why did the publicans not fight the ban directly by refusing to comply? Well, we must think of the knock-on effects of refusing to comply. What about 3rd party liability insurance? What about losing your licence?
I am going to write to my prospective MP and point these things out, but I will emphasise our freedoms. I will also highlight the vast waste of taxpayers money on quangos, etc.
The reason the Landlords didnt revolt in the UK, so I was led to believe was the Pubcos.
Most bars on the continent are privately owned where as only free houses are privately owned here.
It was the Pubcos that agreed to the ban.
Someone correct me if im wrong.
Specky, most pubs in Ireland are family owned and with the exception of 2 or 3 pub landlords who disobeyed the ban in 2004, they were quickly whacked with an enormous fine and made feel like criminals, the rest quickly fell into line after that, and there wasnt a peep out of them.
Two thousnd pubs closed shortly after that and now most pubs in rural ireland only open at weekends or after 7 or 8pm on weekdays, others only opening for 2 or 3 days.
We didnt need pubco's to make us comply.
Good point, Specky.
One of the reasons we have all this Creeping Corporatism is that we simply lack an effective means of policing (and preventing) monopolies and quasi-monopolies.
Danger to Freedom of Choice AND 'Freedom' in its broader sense, ALWAYS occurs when Power becomes concentrated.
Whether the Power is Commercial or Political.
Somehow, we need to develop a culture - and a system - in which that is much harder to achieve.
If, that is, we TRULY wish to live in a Free Society.
There ARE worse things to be than a Nation of Shopkeepers...................
@Specky
It is alleged that Labour blackmailed Pubcos into not fighting the smoking ban by threatening them with being referrred to the the Monopolies and Mergers Commission. Labour then got the pubs to press them not to allow exemptions for private clubs.
Grumpybutterfly - I think 'they' may try to have a go at this entrances/beer garden thingy, but on a realistic level, I don't think it will work. Those people (like some I saw last night) who try to make life nastier for others will end up coming a cropper. I had a smoke outside, last night, and two health fascists started coughing loudly at me (deliberately) so I simply stared at them. Then two passers by started moaning on about smoking so I ignored them. They think they can pick on me because, as a short woman, I am vulnerable. If you get a tribe of folks outside (including some blokes who are 6' 3" tall), I reckon they would stifle their coughs and remarks. Also, it depends very much on the area.
Pubcos etc. well, they only have themselves to blame and the clubs should blame them, if they were happy to go along with the level playing field. A lot of people are not aware of this and thousands of establishments have closed by now and will close.
As I said before - all this is about control.
Jenny -
Yes, the Stage Cough is getting SO boring.
And the NEXT brat who does that Hand-Waving Thing gets thrown into the duck pond, together with its abstemious bloody parents.
Re:
"all this is about control."
Now it may just be my imagination, but it seems that I'm increasingly hearing the phrase 'It's all about control' on SO many people's lips these days.
I never did before.
This COULD be interpreted as a good sign.
And that faint tinkling COULD be the sound of pennies dropping......................
I've also noticed, Martin, that people are making more reference to the words 'marxists', 'stalinists' etc. Since this lot got into power in 1997 there have been on average 33 new pieces of legislation passed per month - seems somewhat excessive to me - and controlling.
However, there are still a few more million pennies which still need to drop, but at least this is a start!
Jenny - Quite !
Always assuming that GB (such strangely inappropriate intitials) doesn't abolish 'pennies' - in a bid to raise Euro-consciousness.
Poor, betrayed Britannia: she must be weeping on her rock right now.
It's NO way to treat a Lady, is it ?