Wanted: comments on e-cigarettes
Wednesday, January 20, 2010 I am on the road or in meetings for much of the day so I'll leave you to discuss e-cigarettes.
According to the headline on the BBC website today: "Proof lacking on e-cigarettes safety, experts warn".
If you think about this, the headline could equally read: "No proof that e-cigarettes cause harm, experts say" ... but that's not really much of a story.
I was asked to comment but I don't know very much about e-cigarettes and I didn't want to say something for the hell of it. Eventually, after a bit of thought, I said:
"Given what we currently know [about e-cigarettes], there seems little cause for alarm and I would caution against any form of scaremongering.
"I don't know anyone who uses e-cigarettes as a permanent replacement for cigarettes, but they are useful in certain situations - on a long-haul flight, for example - where smoking is banned.
"That apart, they can be quite expensive so I can't imagine anyone using them for any length of time, or in any quantity, so one would assume that the health risks, if any, are minimal."
They didn't use it.
Full story HERE.
The video above is courtesy of a website called Mini Cigarette. If anyone uses or has tried an e-cigarette, perhaps you'd like to comment.
Simon Clark
Thanks for your comments. I've learned a lot about e-cigarettes I didn't know before. Very useful.
Reader Comments (111)
I agree with you Idlex, regarding the experiments you undertook with blowing smoke through a clean tissue etc.
As we all know, "experiments" just like "polls" can be rigged to show whatever the experimenter/ pollster, wants them to show.
It is the same with all these idiots who insist that spending a few minutes in the company of a smoker, makes their clothes and hair stink so much that they have to wash it/them before they can go out again.
Like you, I carried out my own little experiment on this (the stink factor) to see if there was any truth in it. I did this after a friend who is a non smoker, sat near me at a dinner party some while back, and complained to another friend afterwards that my smoking had made his clothes and hair stink, and that he could smell it on them the following day.
I took two new face flannels, one of which I marked with a piece of tape. I left one of the flannels in our living room, on the table next to where I normally sit and smoke. I left this flannel there for 3 weeks, so if it was going to "stink" of tobacco smoke, it certainly would have by then wouldn't it? The 2nd flannel was left in the bathroom all this time, unused.
I then invited the non smoker round again, and told him about by experiment. I picked up the flannel from my side table and told him it had been there for 3 weeks whilst I had been smoking near it all that time, and asked him if he could honestly smell the smoke on it. He took one sniff and pushed it quickly away, saying it stunk to high heaven of tobacco smoke. What I had not told him was that I had changed the flannels over. The one he said stunk of tobacco smoke was the brand new one, that had been in a smoke free room all that time and never used.
I am not saying these people are liars. What I am saying is that the power of suggestion, as used by hypnotists, and more increasingly by marketing firms, can make certain people really believe what has been surreptitiously introduced into their brain.
To anyone who doesn't know, there is a guy over on F2C who markets these e-fags. Nothing particularly wrong with that, but I wish he would use his usual name on here, the one he uses on F2C instead of all the fakeos we have seen over the past couple of days.
Kat: I believe Kate on the vapers forum wanted to forge and alliance with ASH hoping they would promote e-cigs to the government. I wwarned that ASH weren't to be trusted only to receive an angry reply, so I left them to it.
About a month later Stanton Glantz launched an assault on e-cigs and it's been non-stop since.
Ho hum. ;-)
I'm in shock and awe!
Never heard of ecigs before until now, thought it was a joke at first until I read all above, still hope you're all not taking the piss.
What I wonder is, that if you go into a shop and ask for a packet of E's, would they call the cops.
Or if you procuded one at an airport would the guys in uniform handcuff you and you'd miss your flight.
Or if you produced one in a pub or restaurant, how would you cope with all the anti eyes upon you, or without the maitre d approaching and making a show of you.
The fact that ASH & Co approves makes me very suspecious, so naturally they must have a vested interest, even go so far as to suspect they've planted their spin doctors on this blog.
But then I think, if the 'experts' are manufacturing non farting sheep and cows to save farmers paying methane levies, why would they stop at animals.
When Big Bro can manipulate us humans to salivatate over synthetic fags, food, drink and all the pleasurable things of life.
Easy peasy I guess!
You are so right Ann, and the trouble is, there are so many people on here who seem to think using junk like this is normal.
Ash are painting smokers as abnormal-beings, killers, junkies, you name it, they will call us it, and the people who say they use these riddiculous things are playing right into their hands.
Fair enough if that's what they want to do, but as a NORMAL smoker I object to being tied in with people who use such freakery.
Oh this has really made me laugh
Such vehemence from the antis.
I'm also wondering if Tom is autistic.
If they work for you then fine & if they don't, also fine. Each to their own
I just wish the antis would shut up & find something else to whinge about.
I've been using an EVOlution e-cig for 10 months now & have had nothing but positive comments about it (especially from my mother (an ex-smoker) & mother-in-law (an anti), my other half's sisters (& their partners) have both taken them up since Christmas).
Nobody has ever laughed at me for using one (possibly because I look like one of the cast of Sons of Anarchy, I don't know). The worst I've ever had wad a vague aquaintance saying You'll never give up using one of those. My reply was that I had no intention of giving up, but I hadn't had a tobacco cigarette since March.
As for the person who made the comment about "Vaping".....
What else would you call it? It's not smoke, to have smoke you have to have combustion.
All it is is a liquid that is heated to the point that it vapourises, hence vaping.
To those smokers on here that are anti, don't knock it until you've tried it.
Some flavours taste more like burning tobacco than others & some don't at all (sweet & savoury flavours)
As somebody else mentioned apart from nicotine (& they don't have to contain that), the only ingredients are Propylene Glycol (the substance that makes the "smoke" in theatrical smoke / fog / haze machines) or Vegetable glycerine (the stuff you get in cough medicine) & food colourings.
Where's the harm???
Hey guys, I wonder if any of you who have stinky hair caused through that nasty old tobacco smoke, has tried E-Shampoooo?
It isn't like ordinary shampoo, in fact it doesn't even contain a cleaner of any kind, but it only cost £10 a phile, plus £8 refils, and your hair need never smell of nasty old tobacco smoke ever again.
The manufacturer? Oh I think it is Ash Industries, they are a well established company so I have been told.
Seriously Soggy? Do you honestly read back what you write and think "Yes, I'm satisfied with that. That is a witty, balanced, well-reasoned and sane post"? Surely when you catch sight of yourself in the mirror, to see those pupils vibrating and glance down at yourself in urine stained, footy pyjamas, you must at least get a glimpse of what the world sees, before you go back to your crayons, to scrawl some more nonsensical bile? Forget whatever crap the folks at ASH get up to, it's just you who's painting yourself as an abnormal being. If anyone is an ASH plant.........
E cigs are not real so what is the point. We are being encouraged to use them because other people don't want us to smoke tobacco. My life, my choice, my health, my money, I won't be forced into accepting this trash which ultimately could do me more harm than good.
Before anyone moans about the selfish smoker who kills millions with carcinogenic soup - I don't have to smoke near anyone who doesn't like it or fears smoke if I had choice. I choose not to smoke a manufactured product that amazingly has come out after the way was cleared with a hated, discriminatory and divisive law.
Three cheers for you Pat, I am with you all the way on this. I too will never be forced or coerced in any way to take up these comic-book plastic abominations, just because, as you so rightly say, other people do not want us to smoke or make up stupid stories about the stink.
From what I have gathered from the posts on here, these people are either ASH supporters or marketeers for these things. Either way, they do not represent real smokers of tobacco.
Blimey, who let this Wryly guy out of his cage?
Peter, you surely are not so ignorant that you cannot accept others opinions? Surely this is what we smokers have had to endure for so long.
The fact that tobacco smells is a HUGE contributory factor to the anti smoking hate campaign, because they can smell it and don't like the smell they are disgusted by us and therefore vehemently encouraged a ban.
I sit on a train now puffing away and no-one even notices, that would not be the case with a cigarette.
They smell - deal with it.
I have quit smoking, I am still a smoker not an evangelist, I hated being told I couldn't smoke as much as you. The only reason I am posting here is that I'm terrified that they are going to ban something ELSE I enjoy doing and will do anything I can to stop it.
I said at the time of the ban - when I was abroad - that it was the start ... believe me, the floodgates are opened, I'm overweight AND a smoker - I've started keeping an eye out for snipers.
What, or who, are "they" that you mention Alice, when you say "They smell - deal with it?"
She's obviously talking about fags Peter. She's another one here trying to make our lives a misery.
Anyone who thinks fags SMELL and we should deal with it is definitely not one of us, she is a TROLL.
Pat Nurse wrote: E cigs are not real so what is the point. We are being encouraged to use them because other people don't want us to smoke tobacco. My life, my choice, my health, my money, I won't be forced into accepting this trash which ultimately could do me more harm than good.
Nobody's "forcing" you to use e-cigs. The only thing that you're actually being forced to do is not smoke in pubs and other public places.
Peter Thurgood wrote: Three cheers for you Pat, I am with you all the way on this. I too will never be forced or coerced in any way to take up these comic-book plastic abominations
Nobody's "forcing" you either, Peter.
Interesting experiment, by the way. I've never tested it myself, but I really think that non-smokers are much less sensitive to tobacco smoke than they claim to be. I think that some odours actually cling on to fabrics, but for the most part only after decades of exposure. And nobody ever smells "like an ashtray."
Well, no, I am not a troll. I am a smoker who spent a fortune on perfume so as not to "offend" the morons who told me I stank.
Guys, just read the whole post, don't just pick out the bits you don't agree with and make an assumption.
Is it the big words? Shall I use less syllables? (That's bits of long words)
Believe me, your life being miserable is nothing to do with me, you seem to be able to do that entirely on your own.
idlex - not only is no one forcing them, I didn't come here to even encourage them to try them.
But what started as a request for people's experience, in light of rumblings about safety issues has now turned into a playground pick on the stranger war.
If, as an eater of cake, when biscuits have just been banned, they asked for an opinion of cake would the biscuit eaters stone them?
Okay really must stop eating cake, those snipers....
Oh dear Alice, you do sound a bitter and twisted person. Most of us on this forum have been posting here for a considerable time, and we do NOT use the type of childish name calling that you insist on using.
I, and from what I have read, most other people on here as well, do not believe you one iota. You are too bitter to be a real smoker.
I wonder why Alice won't own up to saying that cigarettes stink?
Bit of a mistake there was it Alice? Your true side coming out?
How funny Gregory, may I direct you to your previous posts for the name calling? I am reasonably arguing my point against the onslaught of attack by all of you that have been posting here for a considerable time.
I'm not bitter and twisted Gregory, I just have a more heightened sense of humour than you obviously. READ the posts Gregory.
As a fully rounded human being, we need to accept our negatives as well as our positives. At no time have I said that I, myself, am disgusted by the smell of cigarettes (but that others are) or that I hated smoking, I enjoyed it for 26 years, I can't say that the taste of tobacco is one that I loved because it's not true, but I did love smoking HEAVILY. I was lucky, I avoided the ban until now and I bought my device because of it - I just happen to like the sweet flavours more (I refer you back to my overweight post!) and have switched.
I have not attacked you, why do you attack me? I realise that we live in a sceptical, cynical world - but really the vitriolic nastiness that has been launched against the people here is really beyond belief.
I would understand it if I had come into another thread and started spouting, but this thread ASKED us to comment.
Peter.
Cigarettes smell.
Satisfied?
Would you like to try smoking on the train with me and see if anyone notices?
Gregory Simonds wrote: Oh dear Alice, you do sound a bitter and twisted person. Most of us on this forum have been posting here for a considerable time,
Yes, I've been posting here for years. So has Peter Thurgood. And Pat Nurse. And several others. But I've never seen you here before, Mr Simonds. And it was your comment yesterday that kicked off this storm in a teacup.
Don't remember seeing Soggy either. Nor Withnall.
Correct me if I'm wrong.
P.S. In my other incarnation, as Frank Davis, I've been commenting on this thread.
I honestly didn't come to cause trouble idlex. I do love a good argument though! lol and got dragged in.
Look we all smoke, we all love it in our various ways and we should all stand together to defend it.
We are supposed to be the most sociable of the social outcasts - can we drop the swords and have a pint and a fag? (by fag I mean my stupid looking plastic thing that tastes of apple pie)
I didn't think you'd come to "cause trouble" either, Alice. And I've been as astonished as you are with the response of some people.
I think their responses reveal two different concerns. The first is that they don't regard e-cigs as being in the least bit like real ones. And they're quite right. But it remains that they're functionally the same in a great many ways, in that you use them just like cigarettes, and they deliver vapourized nicotine. And they're enough like cigarettes for some antismokers (not all) to identify them as cigarettes. Personally they're enough like cigarettes for me to class them this way too.
So some people put e-cigs in the same category as cigarettes, and some people don't.
But the other concern, as expressed by Pat Nurse and Peter Thurgood, seems to be that if e-cigs are harmless, then next thing cigarettes will be made illegal, and you'll be forced to smoke 'safe' NHS/ASH-approved e-cigs instead.
And maybe that'll happen one day. But nobody is proposing that at the moment, that I know of. If it does happen, I'll be at the barricades with Pat and Peter.
Or at least the e-barricades.
Alice says: "Cigarettes smell.
Satisfied? Would you like to try smoking on the train with me and see if anyone notices?"
With very few exceptions Alice, everything "smells". As a supposed ex-smoker, why do you insist on picking out cigarettes as the smelly things in your lonely life?
The fake-fags, which you now say you suck away happily on, apparently smell, according to yourself, of apple pie, or maybe some other sweetie-type thing. Have you ever considered that maybe other people might object to those smells also?
Just because you do not like the smell of tobacco, does not mean that everyone doesn't, and that also applies to "sweetie" smells, which I and lots of other people personally hate, but we do not constantly complain about it.
Try reading what I said earlier regarding a simple little experiment I carried out with a supposedly "stinking" flannel.
Well, quite.
In light of the other comments, I had read that Peter and Pat seemed to think that WE were forcing this on them, but I see your point now.
This has been my concern, and indeed argument ever since the initial ban in New York - unfortunately like another well publicised and historical event in history - when people ignore these rulings because they "don't effect them personally" and allow any kind of prejudice then the snowball effect brings banning (or genocide in that case) of things that DO effect them.
I see another thread on here about the nanny state - this is where all the vehement anti smokers go.. wait a minute - but it's too late - they stood by for the first one and now have to accept the next.
Peter.
READ.
I did not say I did not like it.
Others said cigarettes did not smell - they do.
I am not going to allow such a moronic statement as cigarettes do not smell to pass me by.
By the way Peter I don't have a lonely life. Please read back, take a deep breath, realise I'm not attacking you and carry on enjoying your life.
This blog and comments have shocked, amused, confused and saddened me.
The e cig has been riduculed when it is an effective way of delivering nicotine in situations where lovers of nicotine would otherwise have to suffer.
Alice has been ridiculed because the likes them.
Rolo Tomasisni has eventually found this blog.
Idlex is Frank.
Peter Thurgood and Patsy Nurse have become friends.
The director of Forest didn't even know what an e cig was.
Fair comment Tim but why were all these new recruits in hiding before Ecig raised it's head? Comments from Alice and others would have been appreciated on other issues.
Certainly a lively discussion going on here, and as a student in Psychology, and a smoker, I can see both sides to this argument. My group here in Chicago, recently undertook a series of tests on adults between the ages of 18 to 65, to try and determin their conscious mental registration of a sensory stimulus with regard to addiction.
To break that down into simple terms, some people perceive themselves as having a need for a stimulus, whereas other people use nothing more than strong will-power to overcome that need.
Our findings showed that if human beings are left completely free to their own perceptions of nature and their surroundings, they will in at least 90% of cases, use their ability to overcome the need for stimuli.
Our study also found that the way the human mind works and how it influences behaviour, or the influence of a particular person's character on their behaviour, is found to be more abundant in people of an insecure disposition.
When we broke this down, to the needs, of perceived needs of a smoker or a person addicted to drugs, we came to the conclusion that they see themselves as having the same needs as identified with a young child or baby with its pacifier.
My advice, for what it is worth, (but it has worked with me) is to try to strengthen your mind and your willpower; tell yourself that you do not need something to pacify your cravings, because cravings themselves, are no more than perceived perceptions of an inadequacy that has been falsely introduced into one's mind.
Good luck Alice, and everyone else on here.
Mark, thank you.
I can't speak for anyone else, but I was mostly in the middle of some ocean or other for the past 5 years.
Suyon noted:- "When we broke this down, to the needs, of perceived needs of a smoker or a person addicted to drugs, we came to the conclusion that they see themselves as having the same needs as identified with a young child or baby with its pacifier.
My advice, for what it is worth, (but it has worked with me) is to try to strengthen your mind and your willpower; tell yourself that you do not need something to pacify your cravings, because cravings themselves, are no more than perceived perceptions of an inadequacy that has been falsely introduced into one's mind."
Does this apply to alcohol and caffein?
Also:- "Our findings showed that if human beings are left completely free to their own perceptions of nature and their surroundings, they will in at least 90% of cases, use their ability to overcome the need for stimuli. "
What is your evidence for this? Why in the past have people freely used drugs(e.g Laudanum), especially in a creative or spiritual context, which would be considered illegal today.
Are your observations flawed by applying your own perceptual filtering to this? How have you controlled for this?
And also:- "Our study also found that the way the human mind works and how it influences behaviour, or the influence of a particular person's character on their behaviour, is found to be more abundant in people of an insecure disposition."
The way the mind works is more abundant in people of an insecure disposition? What are you trying to say here?
----
We frequent commenters are not giving a very good impression of the pro-smoking choice movement by attacking Alice. Her first comment did read as if she may have an interest in ecigs, but she assures she hasn't and I've enjoyed reading her many other comments. Carry on posting, Alice.
I've tried the ecig but it didn't provide a hit, and It required a hard suck, so I gave up. Have they improved recently? Which one gives the most Golden Virginia roll-up type hit?
If cigarette smoke doesn't smell, how come my car & van both stank of cigarettes for about a month after I started using e-cigs? (even with a large dose of febreeze to get rid of it). How come cigar & pipe smoke smells if cigar & pipe tobacco is basically the same ingredient as cigarette tobacco?
E-cig vapour does smell (usually of the flavour that is in the liquid, does anybody find the smell of apple pie, cranberry or mint offencive?), but it disperses a hell of a lot quicker than tobacco smoke.
Oh yes, one more thing. Ecigs aren't plastic (apart from the cartridge), they're metal tubes.
From a distance nobody can tell a white / brown / red LED e-cig from a tobacco cigarette, do cigarettes look silly?
Black e-cigs with blue LEDs don't look like cigarettes & are not easily confused with them. I don't think they look silly either.
No e-cig will ever completely taste like a tobacco cigarette, there is no way to replicate the burning (although some of the tobacco flavours do come close).
The savants on this site who are so blatantly anti will not stop people form using e-cigs by their silly little comments.
To Jon,
It doesn't really matter Jon, if you are a frequent commenter on here or not. I only come onto this site now and again, but I would like to think that people will take notice of what I say because of my comment not because I am a frequent visitor, the same applies to yourself and everyone else.
What I cannot understand is your sucking up to Alice, as if she has said or done something good. I have been through all her posts, and cannot see one good comment, or one comment that stands up for ordinary smokers. To me she sounds very rude and arrogant, in fact very much like your average anti.
When Pat and Peter said they did not want to be coerced into trying e-fags, I saw it as meaning exactly that. Advertisers try to coerce us every day into buying their products, which doesn't mean that they twist our arms up our backs until we do so, it simply means that they exert marketing pressure on us.
Some people are prone to this type of marketing, I do not think either Pat or Peter are, and neither am I. I personally object to people trying to brainwash me. I know what products are on the market, and I will only try them and buy them if I want to, not because someone else tells me how they good they are. I do the same thing when ads come on tv. I turn the sound off.
Maybe this Suyin person is right, when he/she says people like Alice need help. That however is not our job, our job is fighting the smoking ban, and getting the real thing back inside once again.
Well, Jon many thanks for your support, but I shan't be posting here again.. I'm certainly not welcome and I'm not entirely sure I would want to defend the rights of anyone here.
I did not come here for help, or because I'm sad and lonely, nor bitter, twisted, rude or arrogant.
I came to share my experience - which was requested by the author.
If I want to make pro smoking comments I will do so, and have done so, on an appropriate thread for those comments. This thread is not asking for smokers to share their experience, but for ecigarette users to describe the product and it's uses.
All of the vapers/esmokers came to give their experience to Simon, who himself states he knows little of them.
But how I am coming across is of little matter, I was personally attacked, and defended myself as eloquently as I could - occasionally allowing myself to stoop to their level. Boredom can do that. Today - however, I can't be bothered with it all.
I think you may need to rethink your strategy, because with this kind of attitude you may not even have smokers on your side any more let alone persuading anyone else.
Spocky, if the posts asks for comments about ecigs, there are going to be a lot of comments from the ecig community: particularly as many ex or part smokers are now worried that ecigs will be banned. I can see why smokers are wary of ecigs. We don't know if, on balance, they make a change in the smoking ban more likely. I can't see them leading to the banning of cigarettes because, unlike Alice and the other enthusiasts, most smokers don't find them satisfying and only use them where smoking is banned. I still think Alice has been treated a little harshly. The comments section should welcome all opinions about smoking and I've not heard much from ecig toatl converts before now. She thinks smokers are smelly. Well,so what? And I've learned that some smokers are desperate to give up because think other people think they smell. For me, all knowledge is good.
correction; Alice said cigarettes are smelly - which they are, as many other things are.
What is "smelly" Jon?
As I have said many times before, nearly all things have some sort of smell attached to them, and nearly all people have some sort of smell which they hate and others that they love.
Personally I love the smell of tobacco smoke, even pipes, which I have never smoked or tried in my life, The smell to me is like heaven on earth. Whereas I positively hate the smell of many sweet things, especially sweets, and in particular chewing gum, which makes me absolutely heave.
The difference between me and the antis, and it would seem, certain e-cig puffers, is that I do not make it my job to run around trying to get the smells that I dislike banned.
Christ, you're boring.
If defending the smell of smoke is the best thing you can find to do of an evening...sad.
And here is jolly old Otto, twattling away at 20 past 9 at night, showing what great fun he is having about how much he stinks because he walked past someone smoking once.
I have news for you Otto, people with attitudes like yours, who want to suppress other people's freedom, will always stink, no matter where they are, or whatever they have been trying to read.
Actually, you twat, I couldn't care less whether people smoke around me.
I don't personally smoke, but I'm not going to impinge on the freedom of people to do so (the guvmint does enough of that).
What is truly pathetic is the breed of 'militant smokers' like yourself who will argue for hours that black is white and whinge like a child over something that has happened, won't be repealed and really doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things.
Good God, shakespeare's been posting here again.
Did someone lift your stone?
...and that's the best you can do.
Go on Pete; tell us how nearly everything on the planet smells.
Give us more of your manificent insight; you sad twat!
Please crawl back under your stone Otto Kunt. This site is for debate not for the sort of pathetic shit you spew up.
I second that Gregory. Where do these half bakes twats come from?
Ha!, certainly not from your pathetic little interest group that has so little going on that you seem to define yourselves as some kind of hardcore smoking community.
Why not spend your time debating something worthwhile?
Not that you seem to be open to a great deal of debate. The predominant theme on this thread seems to be:
'don't smoke?, enjoy e-cigs?, hold any view on cigarettes contrary to mine? then fuck off you child'
Carry on you manly men!
Oh, and I'm so glad you second the half-wit above you David.
I'm sure old Greg is happy top know he has an intellectual heavyweight such as yourself backing him up. He probably really wasn't sure of his eloquent and well argued point till he realised you were on board with it.