The honeymoon is over
Tuesday, June 19, 2007 
Our old friend Sue Brealey, co-author of the Joy of Smoking, was on BBC Breakfast this morning and did a great job refuting the alleged 'evidence' that passive smoking kills thousands of non-smokers every year.
Sue was a speaker - alongside David Hockney and Joe Jackson - at the fringe meeting organised by Forest at the 2005 Labour party conference (see HERE and HERE). She wrote the Joy of Smoking with the Daily Mirror's Sue Carroll (who spoke at the same event).
Sue got married 17 days ago and for the past two weeks has been on honeymoon - which makes her appearance this morning even more praiseworthy. And she's a non-smoker!
Simon Clark
I am pleased to say that Sue Brealey and her husband will be joining us at The Savoy on Monday. That makes 382 guests. A few more and the event will be sold out. The speed at which tickets have been snapped up has taken everyone by surprise. Ranald (MD of Boisdale) has organised hundreds of events. Today he told me he'd never seen anything like it.
Reader Comments (62)
I saw her interview on the Breakfast Show this morning. It showed in particular the bias we have come to know over this issue from Aunty Beeb. Sue made sure it was known in the beginning that she was a known non smoker. This stopped some of the pathetic assumptions that the interviewers normally make an issue on. Her fellow interviewee, whoever the prat was, was well out of his depth. The idea that the BMA know more than the WHO discovered was complete and utter rubbish. When research proves them wrong, they hide these facts. What else are they hiding? If those in favour of this considered the quotes of Churchill and Lincoln, perhaps we could be spared the stupidity of ASH, NHS and HMG. Churchill stated 'Lies. More lies and Statistics. Lincoln Said, 'You can fool some of the people all of the time and all the people some of the time. However, you cannot fool all the people all of the time.' Please excuse if the quotes are not perfect but I think my point is clear.
I'm sorry I missed it.
What's the saying? A lie will go around the world before the truth will put it's boots on.
I'm hoping we're at the stage where the truth is out of the starting gate and starts to get the attention it deserves.
I think it is starting, Rob. David Hockney now seems to have regular slots on news programmes and being a Yorkshireman, he is doing excellent coverage in my region. I saw him twice on TV yesterday and people in my local were talking about him and how good he is. Also, on the Politics Show on Sunday an MEP for Yorkshire and Humberside (Geoffrey Bloom I believe - not sure about his name) who actually stands for UKIP did an excellent interview and really made his points clear (smoking a cigar) about it now becoming a fascist state and it should be at the discretion of the pub landlord/owner of the premises whether smoking is permitted or not. He ran rings round the Lib Dem Female MEP who was a typical PC nanny boring do-gooder. He looked at home in the N. Yorkshire pub where he was filmed, whereas she looked out of place. Let battle commence!!!
Are we led to believe that smokers who don't pay fines will go to prison. Aren't they letting out burglars and drug addicts, not enough prison space. If enough people defy this the government are screwed.
Andew - that is always the case and is the backbone of any civil disobedience. Unfortunately the vulnerable party is the pub owner who can have his license revolked and thus his livelihood taken away from him. This ban take responsibility for its enforvement out of the hands of the government and into pub owners hands - whether they want to enforce it or not.
It's them who have to pay the price.
In my opinion real civil disobedience will come when they start trying to outlaw it in public OUTDOOR areas (which is only a matter of time) or in cars.
Rob
There will still be a fine for the smoker. What if he or she refuse to pay the fine???????
Nice to see the biased Beeb getting a kick plus the antis. However, the Beeb was being inordinately generous as it's usual subservient position on this matter is as government mouthpiece. In fact, I've renamed it "Pravda". So don't be surprised when you discover no real change has taken place at all
Rob; You are right as far as civil disobedience in pubs goes and you are right about outdoor areas and cars. But wouldn't it be fun if smokers were to light up in publicly owned buildings? :-)
http://www.icanhelpit.co.uk/blog/default.asp
Simon, do you know any TV producers who may have the inclination and the spirit to make a documentary about the Truth behind the passive smoking scandal. To expose this to the public, who, most, lets face it, know nothing of this, could turn things around very quickly. Public knowledge is the key to battle.
Simon, do you know any TV producers who may have the inclination and the spirit to make a documentary about the Truth behind the passive smoking scandal. To expose this to the public, who, most, lets face it, know nothing of this, could turn things around very quickly. Public knowledge is the key to THIS battle. Sorry
Rob
There are already some open spaces, that I believe should be public, such as NHS grounds -I believe they are not private on the basis that all of us who pay our NI and to park our cars are part owners of this space. Lets face it, it is supposed to be a PUBLIC health service not a private one. How many of these have No Smoking on These Premises signs up? I must confess, it hasn't stopped me yet and so far no-one has said anything, but I bet it will start come July 1st! My excuse at the moment is that I am 'mentally unstable' which is why I attend the hospital to see both a Pshychiatrist and a Counsellor, so I cannot therefore be held fully responsible for my actions. I was fine, mentally, until all these lies and propoganda started to be spread and the total ban was announced!
This is nothing short of APARTHEID.
Zitori; There is an excellent documentary I've seen by Penn and Teller in their "Bullshit" series. It might be available on something like Youtube but I don't know for sure. It is only about 30 minutes long.
Andrew; I'm not sure this would qualify as apartheid though I am sure that would upset the pc brigade more than what it really is, fascistic.
http://www.icanhelpit.co.uk/blog/default.asp
There is no law backing up the bans on NHS grounds and imho providing you're not disturbing other people should feel free to light up. I think it's monsterous that hospitals feel it's OK to force people off the proprty for a smoke - dressed only in a dressing gown and dragging an IV cart along with them.
If I have cause to visit a hospital that has banned it on their grounds in the near future I shall make a point of ignoring it and laugh at anyone who objects to the cigarette and not the 3 litre tubro diesel SUV I drove up in.
Bernie makes an interesting point about smoking in public buildings but I think that would only compound the problem - the fines would be raised as a response, to dicourage widespread disobedience.
I am however curious as to what powers these smoke inspectors have. I don't carry ID and I assume to issue the fine they will have to ask for a name an address - what stops me from giving them false information?
Yes Bernie, I have seen the Penn and Teller video on the Sadireland site, but the sort of documentary I had in mind would be akin to 'the Great Global Warming Scandal' that was shown on Channel 4 a few months ago. A full scale scientific assuault on the dispicable lies. Is there any TV producers out there???!!!
Zitori; I saw the global warming doc you mention and thought it was very good. You will notice that it hasn't made the slightest difference to the onslaught of dire warnings. The problem isn't making good documentaries but getting them seen. I doubt there will be much more like that from Channel 4. The problem is that the main stream media is infested with people who support the "solutions" invariably promoted by all these scares - more regulations and taxes.
Rob; Good question about the name and address. I expect the goons will take photographs as a matter of course. You can see how the National ID database will fit in nicely here?
Of course its all for our own good.
http://www.icanhelpit.co.uk/blog/default.asp
Rob
Still waiting for answer
What happens if smokers refuse to pay fines???
Hi Everyone,
I had cause to visit our local A&E
dept on sunday night,our hospital is one where smoking is allegedly banned in all the grounds,after the usual 5 hour wait I gave in to the temptation and started to hobble to the road in order to light up,I got to the main entrance, and, there must have been about ten people standing under the canopy having a smoke, so I thought sod it and joined them,
even though there were ambulance crews,police,and hospital security staff going in and out, nobody said a word,I was quite suprised when the usual "put that fag out "was not forthcoming.
Andrew,
If fines are not paid they send the bailiffs in to relieve you of your possesions,thay also charge you for the privelige as well.
Sorry Andrew, I thought it was a rhetorical question. The answer in the short term is nothing.
After a few publicans get fined they themselves would crack down on people smoking on their premises. It's the beauty of the scheme - the bar owners are forced into policing it for fear of their livelihood.
The smoke police we hear about now and again aren't out to make sure the smoker is sticking to the ban, but to ensure the bar owners are enforcing it.
Carl
Can't use bailiffs if household goods belong to partner.
Bernie, the Global Warming programme may not have made much difference, but the so called science behind the 'passive smoking fraud' is much easier to shoot down, and the real Facts about chemicals, risk ratios etc would come as a revelation to most people. I think it would indeed be effective, given, of course, the opportunity.
Rob
On the spot fines (outside) will not involve a publican. What if these people refuse to pay?
Zitori; I have no problem with your wanting to get the true information out there. The problem is the means of getting it out. The main stream media is not really open to us other than to continue to portray us as cranks or addicts.
It isn't that these things aren't known to those who could make or show the documentaries. They are known to them. They know the justifications for the ban are bunk yet they continue to promote them because they want the ban themselves.
I agree that if the wider public were better educated they would resist more effectively. The people who control much of the main stream media understand this too and that is why it won't happen.
The main stream media are complicit with the government. They help to create the belief that "everyone knows" about the dangers of tobacco or global warming or the threat of terror. The government needs them to do this in order to justify whatever it wants to do.
Well, since on the stop fines for smoking outside don't exist in the UK it's hard to know how it will be carried out or who'll be primarily responsible for enforcing it. Will it be the police? I don't know.
If it is the police and you refuse to accept the fine then you'll be arrested and given a bigger fine by the magistrate's court. If you refuse to pay that then you're talking jail time. After which you'll still have to pay the fine. If you don't then you go back to jail and so on and so forth.
It's easy to imagine if 100,000 people across the UK felt passionately about the subject to do this then the who system would break down very quickly. Even ten thousand would be enough to make their presence felt.
Rob; A half or even a third of that number could be effective if they were organized.
http://www.icanhelpit.co.uk/blog/default.asp
You're right, Bernie, that the mainstream media
promote these lies with enthusiasm,and portray anyone who questions them cranks, but a funny thing happens to cranks when they multiply, they become plausible. I realize that it's very difficult to get ANY truths out to the general public on this issue, but every way possible must be tried and it will seep through in the end, like flood water and sandbags.
Sorry about the analogy, but it's late.
Rob and Bernie
I agree, this is all about numbers. I feel July 1st will be a strong guide. If Nick Hogan and others do fill pubs and they all defy the ban, others might follow. Does anyone know the current status of rebel pubs for the 1st July??
I disagree with Bernie when he says that the main stream media is not really open to us other than to continue to portray us as cranks or addicts.He goes onto say that they know the justifications for the ban are bunk yet they continue to promote them because they want the ban themselves.
Unlike a few years ago when there was just the BBC and ITV, there are so many TV channels now that are actually clamouring for good, sensational programmes. They won't cough up the money to make programmes such as this, but they will buy it once it has been made, if it is good enough of course.
What is needed, is for an organisation, such as "Forest" maybe? To provide all the facts, then we need to pull in some good writers, and some personalities who would be willing to front such a programme. Next step is to get a small production company interested, who would be willing to participate for no up front fee, just a share of the profits, and believe me there would be enough production companies willing to do this, if the right personalities were involved (David Hockney for instance).
It would be absolutely useless to make a programme such as this if it was just a pure and simple fact based documentary. It needs to be sensationalised, an expose, something that would really make people sit up and take notice. And it must also be willing to face criticism and be ready to defend itself with even more facts.
One programme like this could be worth more than all the smoke-ins and acts of defiance, it could sell all over the world and educate people to the truth, as well as making lots of money in the process. What about it Forest, fancy getting your hands dirty?
Peter, you are absolutely correct in saying tha a fact-based program would not be enough. Obviously it would have to have plenty of facts throughout, but an expose of some kind is a must.
Perhaps pushing the link between big pharma-ASH-governments. Why are government's so willing to push a big-pharma agenda, and why DO they give money to big-pharma's mouthpiece, ASH?
When you look at the big picture Rob, it is really difficult to see the wood for trees, why I ask myself, would any government in the world, want to give up billions of pounds in revenue which they have always collected from the tobacco industry, bearing in mind what all money grabbing governments are like?
There has to be a conspiracy, and it has to be on an enormous scale. We need to dig deep on this one, and when and if we do find the answers, the proposed programme would hopefully be just the tip of the iceberg which would eventually sink not just this corrupt government, but all governments around the world that are playing the same card.
Just read the Forces site, ALL the relevant information, and reasons why this is happening are explained and proven.
What does everyone make of the freedom to choose legal challenge.
http://www.freedom2choose.co.uk/news1.php?id=231
Saw Lord Falconer squirm yesterday. Imagine the headlines if they lock up a smoker while letting burglars out.
Rob Simpson says: "when they start trying to outlaw it in public OUTDOOR areas (which is only a matter of time)"
Where are your FACTS to support this?
It's a pity that these individuals are relegated to the dreg spots of daytime TV to make their point. Along with Z-list celebrities and dogs that bark the national anthem, they deserve a prime time spot to get their argument heard.
Hello all - just to let you know my thoughts of the day. Firstly - if they are emptying prisons, is it because they want to lock us up with the free space made available?! They could make examples of us and then at last 25% of the population would be wild with rage. After all, they have made examples of eg. 78 yr old ladies for not paying enough council tax!! Secondly, could someone post up the website for Forces, please (I haven't read that yet). It may be that the EU signing over without referendum is imminent - could cause a spot of bother along with Mr Rushdie's knighthood in certain places! I think they will need to build a lot more prisons shortly!
A certain A M Andrews from Allda, Clacks, has written a letter published in today's Daily Mail stating that poor victims of crime should not despair because: -
"From July 1 the real scum of our land will be swiftly dealt with ...." (ie. tobacco smokers) "This will surely go a long way towards cleansing society ...." (sounds like ethnic cleansing to me) and "Smokers beware! You - not motorists - are now public enemy number 1."
I now realise that I, for one, am to be regarded as being on par with hardened criminals who deliberate maim/ wound/ kill/ thieve and beat up /knife/ shoot other people. Perhaps this letter was printed to provoke comment, but the writer really does need his/her head examining along with members of the government.
Jenny
From what you have said it would appear this letter is intended to rubbish the system, I think the poor victims of crime bit gives it away.
Hi Jenny,
Could be a wind up merchant,however, I think if the media continue to print this stuff it will further our cause,be interesting to see what sort of response he gets from other antis though.
Jenny,
Is this what you need?
www.forces.org
Another point being missed is the street violence that will occur, mainly from large congregations of youth outside bars.
Hi - yes Andrew, Carl - could be right - perhaps I was hypersensitive but I feel that this is the route we are going down. Colin - thanks, yes, that's the site I want to look at.
By the way, on a lighter note, Bernie's designs are really starting to make an impact. I bought some 'second hand smoke is cooler than second hand fascism' A5 and A4 size posters. (I meant to order the ones with the boots on, but am glad now Bernie sent me these.) Took them to the pub last night and gave an A5 size one to a pal who smokes (who loves it) and a local pc mineral water drinking guy saw it and went mad! He started having a go at me and then had a go at Reg - asked me if I understood history etc. so I said, "Well, yes, I've lived in Germany and speak the language and met old former Nazi supporters (grandparents of friends and now dead) very many years ago who told me all about the pre-war and war years. I told him we were now going down the same route here, but he yelled and raved and then the pc guy moved into another room disgusted with us and we had such a laugh. Can't wait to take some copies of the poster with the jackboot in!! and a few armbands - and, of course, the diversity T shirt!! :)
Jenny, talking of Jackboots, have you heard the infamous 'Jackboot' by British singer, songwriter Eamonn Mallon. It's the official song chosen to represent 'Forces', the sight you wanted to see.Brooding and emotional, it says it all. Apparently it's to be released in England soon.You can download it free, eat the moment from from Forces or www.eamonnmallon.co.uk
Alan,
My FACTS for supporting this exist everywhere a smoking ban is "mature". They also include Jack McConnells sentiments before he was voted out of office as well as other MSPs who expressed a desire to extend the ban in Scotland.
Now, where are your FACTS refuting my assertion?
Rob
If this ban is so popular with the public, why was
Jack McConnell voted out of office?????
Zitori wrote;
“It's the official song chosen to represent 'Forces',”
Only song that is appropriate to this situation is;
“ALWAYS LOOK ON THE BRIGHT SIDE OF LIFE” (from Monty Python - Life of Brian ) (words and music by Eric Idle)
Zitory and everybody also,
I think that is not time now for singing but we need to be serious and to do something.
Luke, Jackboot is a very 'serious' song, and express's perfectly what many people feel. Protest songs throughout history have helped many people come together, and raised awareness, and given people a deep feeling of a common cause. Music can be a powerful tool to inspire people to 'do something' as you say, and that song hits the button.
I think the people at Forces are extremely 'serious'!
Peter; How dare you disagree with me :-)
By main stream media I mean tv and radio and the national press. The BBC is obvious but Channel 4, even if they did air a good show on "climate change" is still part of the main stream. Also every other channel that depends on being in good standing with the government in order to continue operating. Yes the BBC has a license fee but every other UK based channel has to have government approval to operate. Sky is a little different but seems to me to have the same agendas as the UK media.
I am not saying that a real evidence based documentary about smoking couldn't possibly be aired on mainstream tv. It might get aired just as the global warming one did. It would be a kind of token "look how impartial we are" gesture. But it would be thereafter ignored by the controllers of any media that showed it no matter how good it was.
This is not to say that it is a bad idea to try. It could gain a good audience on the internet if nowhere else.
Zitori, thanks for your replay.
I too, think the people at Forces are serious and I have great respect for most of them.
I am sure that Jackboot is buetifull song but point that I like to make is; the people that are to much afraid for own health do not have sense for music.
By people that are engulfed by fear the common sense and ability to reasonable thinking is impaired.
Nothing will stop this insanity, not music or poetry or anything also if moderate smoking is harmful for health.
I think that second smoke protect from second hand breath.
Second hand breath is full of microbes and viruses.
Personally I am allergic on second hand breath of particularly sort of people that pretending to care about others people health but in reality they care only for their own belief that is born out of their own fear.
To the anti smoking hysteria we should counteract with health messages not with music or poetry.
To the scientific fraud we should counteract with the facts from real life.
Jenny; Thanks for the feedback. Those posters surely are good for starting conversations. I wore a t-shirt with the same thing on it yesterday and it was quite dramatic. The t-shirt version is not for the feint hearted.
On the appropriateness of using the Nazi symbol we need to be well informed about the history of the Nazis. In modern times we are only "supposed" to think of the Nazis as murdering 6 million people in gas chambers but that only started after they had been in power for many years.
One thing that has always bugged me is that in most documentaries about the Nazis we are told "This must not happen again" or "We must learn the lessons of the Holocaust". The problem is that no one then states what the lessons are. So I figured a few out myself.
If we wait for gas chambers to start operating 24 hours a day we would be quite a bit late. Years too late. The ground was prepared way before the war even started. But this isn't about gas chambers it is about smoking.
The term "passive smoking" was coined by a Nazi doctor Fritz Lickint.
The following comes from here
http://www.pierrelemieux.org/artproctor.html
Many anti smoking controls were enacted, including restrictions advertising and bans on smoking in many workplaces, government offices, hospitals and, later, in all city trains and buses. Women could not legally purchase cigarettes in certain places. "The German woman does not smoke," proclaimed a Nazi slogan.