Thursday
Jul292010
Open thread
Thursday, July 29, 2010 You are welcome to comment on a wide range of issues while I am away (see below) but please don't abuse this thread. Comment moderation can be activated should the need arise ...
Update on Wednesday, August 11, 2010 by
Simon Clark
Simon Clark
Thanks for all your comments. I've just read them and there's some interesting stuff. I might make this Open Thread a regular feature!
Reader Comments (250)
Rich01
I think that only a vicar could get away with it, and then only on the first day of the ban.
As upholders of British traditions, I was interested in what the Church made of it all.
Like most of England, I don't think they could quite believe what had happened .
There was also much talk of not being able to smoke in their own studies where they met parishoners and wondering if incense was still allowed.
And I am fairly sure that no MP in his right mind would ever have knowingly voted to have the elderly and sick standing outside hospitals under any circumstances.
Or at least I hope not.
Church Mouse: are you the same as or connected with http://churchmousepublishing.blogspot.com/search?updated-max=2010-07-15T15%3A33%3A00%2B01%3A00&max-results=10 ?
I tried to ask that little chap whether he was connected with you but I couldn't find a way through.
Great quote, Peter, and great link Dave.
Bearing in mind what happens in Holland, I can see a day coming when we can walk down the street smoking hash, but would be arrested for daring to put tobacco in it.
Of course, churches and shops were never the intended targets of the antis. But they had to deploy the scattergun tactic to make the ban easy to implement. The real targets were pubs and other places that people frequented purely for enjoyment - they do not want smoking to be associated as, or with, anything pleasurable. This crucial part of the denormalisation process will facilitate the crusade to ban smoking in public open spaces, cars and ultimately all private spaces where non smokers (including adults) are exposed.
In a nutshell - everywhere.
I don't know why I'm obsessed with smoking in Scotland, I'm not even Scottish. This link to a report on stopping point of sale advertising sounds so amateur, it is breathtaking. And the Scottish government listens to this nonsense.
http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2010/04/27151930/14
davidb
Denormalisation is about making you feel alone and unwelcome, a constant reminder that you are an now an outcast wherever you go, including churches.
Markers of the denormalisation of smoking and the tobacco industry -2008
"However, internationally, the term is also used to encompass efforts challenging notions that smoking ought to be regarded as routine or normal, particularly in public settings.
Hammond et al state that "social denormalisation" strategies seek "to change the broad social norms around using tobacco—to push tobacco use out of the charmed circle of normal, desirable practice to being an abnormal practice".
http://tobaccocontrol.bmj.com/content/17/1/25.full
HEALTH POLICY AND ETHICS
Tobacco Control, Stigma, and Public Health: Rethinking the Relations
"The AIDS epidemic has borne witness to the terrible burdens imposed by stigmatization and to the way in which marginalization could subvert the goals of HIV prevention. Out of that experience, and propelled by the linkage of public health and human rights, came the commonplace assertion that stigmatization was a retrograde force.
Yet, strikingly, the antitobacco movement has fostered a social transformation that involves the stigmatization of smokers.
Does this transformation represent a troubling outcome of efforts to limit tobacco use and its associated morbidity and mortality; an ineffective, counterproductive, and moralizing approach that leads to a dead end; or a signal of public health achievement?
If the latter is the case, are there unacknowledged costs?"
http://ajph.aphapublications.org/cgi/content/full/96/1/47
Quite a shock for decent law-abiding people who never put a foot out of line to be treated in this manner, but its a new public health strategy set in place by the previous government.
Terrible news
I don't know what this will mean to ordinary folk like us, in our constant battle to have the smoking-ban amended or overturned, but from what I can see it doesn't look good!
Madonna has been spotted smoking! Yes, that's right, take a deep breath and read that again, "Madonna has been spotted smoking"
The Mail this morning shows this tragic picture of her with cigarette in one hand and a lighter in the other. It states 'and with her head tilted back and eyes closed, she gave a convincing impression of a smoker getting a long-awaited nicotine fix'
From what I gather, there might have to be an official enquiry into this, which believe me will knock the likes of the Iraq enquiry from its perch, they are even thinking of calling Tony Blair as a witness, as ASH are blaming him and his government for not banning smoking completely.
There is a picture of the wicked lady, caught in act here
but bear in mind, it is not for the faint hearted.
With regard to stigmatisation, there was an article in the Dail Mail a few days ago, about an extension of the ban outside being cancelled. Someone has posted that it is time to start physically abusing smokers. I dont know whether I am more disgusted by the post or for the Mail for allowing it on.
Social movements and human rights rhetoric in tobacco control 2005
"Over the past 20 years, the tobacco control movement has achieved extraordinary successes, arguably far beyond what anyone anticipated. Aside from the enactment of once unthinkable restrictions on smoking in public places, including virtually no smoking in public places in California and New York City, the movement is responsible for changing the nation’s social norms regarding tobacco use.
Even in areas where strong anti-smoking laws have not been enacted, smokers are on the defensive and the cultural norm no longer favours public tobacco use."
In sum, human rights language can be an invaluable adjunct to a wide range of tobacco control activities.
Using human rights rhetoric can help frame the movement in ways that have traditionally appealed to the American public"
http://tobaccocontrol.bmj.com/content/14/suppl_2/ii45.full
Its a bit like tearful, bullies pretending that the small child they just punched, had really hit them first.
That's funny Sheils - I've been quite encouraged by the volume of intelligent comments on the No. 10 site - having tended to limit my online reading to this blog and other pro-choce sites, I hadn't realised quite how strong and widespread the feeling was in the country - so I felt a bit lonely with my views. I was thinking earlier 'If we all simply refuse to be denormalised, and refuse to be diminished by this cruel and vindictive strategy... what are they going to do, hit us over the head with hammers?' Then I read your post.
I also found this. I had thought the upswell and openness in postings against the ban were a result of a sense of getting Labour of our backs at last, so I was surprised to see some great comments under this Guardian article dating back to February (sorry if it's been posted here before):
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/feb/04/smoking-ban-health-policy-tobacco
Rose2 - I have to say I'm so encouraged by the views I'm reading that I no longer think people are that gullible. All this time I've felt quite alone, and now I see so clearly that people have not been as sucked as I thought. It's just that the antis insist of trying to make us believe they have greater numbers than they do.
E cigarettes look like they are going to be made illegal.
http://vapersnetwork.org/Kate/MHRA%20banning%20letter.pdf
I agree with liberty on this issue. I smoke anywhere I am able to and if I've been treated as abnormal, I must have missed it. I've never noticed any reaction at all - other than being asked for one. In fact, recently, I've seen people lighting up in shopping centres (no smoking signs) and hospital grounds (no smoking). I 've seen ambulance drivers lighting up on same grounds. At the moment, I see no reaction.
People have had enough of this sh*t. They never bought it, anyway, just kowtowed to an authoritarian Govt. keeping their heads down. I'm encouraged by the recent cancellation of review for reasons I've given before, by the apparent dismissal of further bans, by the desperation of antis, now having to resort to quoting fairy tale quit rates, in complete ignorance of Imp. Tobs. SE announced increase of sales. Slowly and gently we go.
Very interesting note you pointed out to us there Dave, regarding E-cigs. I wanted to answer it properly, but that site doesn't allow you to copy and paste does it.
Consequently I have forgotten the actual department etc that are issuing these dictats.
But from what I remember, they are saying they can be banned because they wish to treat them as medical aids, but who on earth sells them as such in the first place? Surely it is up to the seller to name this product as they wish?
Personally I do not like the idea of them, but just beacuse someone doesn't like them does not mean they should be banned.
If I were selling such a product, I would label them as "fun" products, "completely harmless", most definitely not a mediacl product.
Who the hell do these people think they are in deciding "they" are going to ban them? I was under the apprehension that Cameron was our PM and thet we had a live/active, coalition Government, and that if anything is going to be banned, then it is up to them to consult first with us, the epople, and then take what action "they" deem neccessary.
Liberty
I felt the same way when I read the newspaper threads after the ban, I had never seen people be so vilely abusive to total strangers before.
Then I noticed that they were all using the same phrases that seemed to change every week, so I did a little digging.
"In America, they call it 'astroturfing': the faking of grassroots support for a politician or a product whose popularity is on the slide.
Now it emerges that a tactic invented by US pharmaceutical firms to promote drugs - and promptly adopted by the Republicans to shore up George Bush after 9/11 - was imported to Britain to help get Tony Blair re-elected.
A documentary to be screened on Channel 4 tomorrow, filmed by an undercover journalist who got a job in Labour's war room, reveals how party members and supporters were systematically used to create the impression of 'real people' passionately backing the government.
Model letters were drafted for them to 'write' to local papers, as if they had been spontaneously roused to complain..."
"She also helped compile model letters for supporters to send to local papers, complaining that 'as someone who has worked for a number of years in the NHS', they found that Michael Howard's use of the case of pensioner Margaret Dixon - who had her shoulder operation repeatedly cancelled - had not 'accurately represented' the state of the health service.
The letters later appeared virtually word for word in local newspapers, under the names of local party activists who did not declare their allegiances.
Campaign materials seen by Dispatches stress that 'more people trust the letters page than any other page of their local newspaper' and that local organisers should target it."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2005/may/22/uk.election2005
I don't think they are real.
After the ban, why would people who really dislike tobacco smoke bother to haunt every smoking thread in every paper?
To block any discussion and thus maintain the illusion of your being alone in your views, so that eventually, sufficiently cowed you keep quiet?
As regards the no smoking notices in bars and restaurants or wherever, when the smoking ban came in first I used to tear them down, when the coast was clear, and put them in my handbag and dump them on the way home but I got fed up eventually and gave up especially when I'd see them back up the next time.
It always amazes me how the graffiti delinquents never touch or blank out smoking signs either, maybe they have a conscience about that?
There was an article in the Mail last week stating that the health dept spent 23million to tell us that eating an apple was healthy for us.
And they get away with that.
Just goes to show how much we've all been dumbed down by the powerful quangos now that they've found the connection to our brains, which is
ITS FOR YOUR OWN GOOD
And who will argue with that.
The decision on e-cigs hasn't been taken yet. The MHRA have indicated that a decision will come in September.
This is not just about e-cigs though. It is about all NCPs (Nicotine containing products) except tobacco. It is a step to effectively split the market. Essentailly Tobacco would be the only recreational Nictoine product. All other NCPs would be regulated as medicines.(not sure what they are going to do about Aubergines though :))
Some e-cig vendors want to get an MA to market e-cigs as NRT. The majority (that I am aware of) want the recreational market to remain open.
It was thought that e-cigs would be used to force smokers off of real cigarettes. This has not been the case. The alphabet soup in the US have came out against them. In the UK, some people thought ASH supported the e-cig. A careful reading of their pamphlet shows this is not the case. They want medicalised nicotine as much as anyone.
It maybe if a 'ban' were to happen, BigP will come out with their approved NRT device that looks like an e-cig but will be more controlled. Indeed if this were to happen then there is a likelyhood that the new medicalised nictine delivery devices would then be used as a way to coerce people who smoke.
Of course this is not what most vapers. I speak to, want at all. They want a choice of product and essentialy what we have now.
It is a pity that the divide and conquer approach has wokred so well with some Vapers vehemently anti-cigs and some people who smoke anti-ecig. This has enabled those who thrive on control to effectively proceed as they wanted.
Ultimately the difinitive splitting of the market will be to no ones benefit except the antis.
Junican -- I was coming out in favour of smoking. How much more clearly could I have said it? Think of it as 'God v ASH'.
I never even mentioned those stupid 'no smoking' signs. (No one has ever smoked inside a church, synagogue or other place where religious services took place, anyway.)
Churchmouse
Norman -- No connection whatsoever with Churchmouse Publishing. Never read his blog or have even heard of him until a few months ago.
Churchmouse
Norman -- Re the New Testament verses -- thank you! That is just what is happening now -- such a pharisaical attitude of the antis to smokers. Yes, I agree, Christ would have been outside in the wind, rain and snow with the smokers.
Rose2 -- Thanks for all the links about vicars and the 'no smoking' signs! Brilliant. Actually, I'm not sure my church has one anymore. It did but I haven't seen it for awhile.
Churchmouse
Churchmouse
God v ASH is tricky, as it started here with James 1 in a religious fervor, ranting about people imitating heathen practices.
Of the Tabaco and of His Greate Vertues -1577
"THIS herb, which commonly is called tobacco, is an herb be of much antiquity, and known amongst the Indians, and in especially among them of the new Spain, and after that those countries were gotten by our Spaniards, being taught of the Indians, they did profit themselves of those things, in the Wounds which they received in their Wars, healing themselves therewith, to the great benefit of them
Within this few years there has been brought to Spain of it, more to adorn Gardens with the fairness thereof, and to give a pleasant sight, rather then that it was thought it had the marvelous Medicinal virtues which it hash, now we do use of it more for his virtues then for his fairness. For surely they are. such which put admiration
It is growing in many parts of the Indies, but ordinarily in moist places, and shadow places, and it is needful that the ground where it is sown, be well tilled, all that it be fruitful ground in all times it is sown, in the hot countries.
But in the collide countries it must be sown in the month of March, for that it may defend it self from the frost"
http://www.tobacco.org/History/monardes.html
James 1st version
A Counterblaste to Tobacco
"That the manifolde abuses of this vile custome of Tobacco taking, may the better be espied, it is fit, that first you enter into consideration both of the first originall thereof, and likewise of the reasons of the first entry thereof into this Countrey.
For certainely as such customes, that have their first institution either from a godly, necessary, or honorable ground, and are first brought in, by the meanes of some worthy, vertuous, and great Personage, are ever, and most justly, holden in great and reverent estimation and account, by all wise, vertuous, and temperate spirits:
So should it by the contrary, justly bring a great disgrace into that sort of customes, which having their originall from base corruption and barbarity, doe in like sort, make their first entry into a Countrey, by an inconsiderate and childish affectation of Noveltie, as is the true case of the first invention of Tobacco taking, and of the first entry thereof among us.
For Tobacco being a common herbe, which (though under divers names) growes almost every where, was first found out by some of the barbarous Indians, to be a Preservative, or Antidot against the Pockes, a filthy disease, whereunto these barbarous people are (as all men know) very much subject, what through the uncleanly and adust constitution of their bodies, and what through the intemperate heate of their Climat: so that as from them was first brought into Christendome, that most detestable disease, so from them likewise was brought this use of Tobacco, as a stinking and unsavorie Antidot, for so corrupted and execrable a Maladie, the stinking Suffumigation whereof they yet use against that disease, making so one canker or venime to eate out another.
And now good Countrey men let us (I pray you) consider, what honour or policie can moove us to imitate the barbarous and beastly maners of the wilde, godlesse, and slavish Indians, especially in so vile and stinking a custome?"
"In your abuse thereof sinning against God, harming your selves both in persons and goods, and raking also thereby the markes and notes of vanitie upon you: by the custome thereof making your selves to be wondered at by all forraine civil Nations, and by all strangers that come among you, to be scorned and contemned. "
etc. etc.etc.
http://www.laits.utexas.edu/poltheory/james/blaste/blaste.html
Not a nice man, with some very peculiar ideas.
During this period, he wrote the aforementioned treatise on demonology. As a result, hundreds of men and women were put to death for witchcraft; their bodies were later found in what was then called Nor Loch (now Princes Street Gardens).
http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/James_I_of_England
Rose2 -- But, James I wasn't a cleric. He had his hangup about tobacco as did other rulers.
Well, the 'God v ASH' might be oversimplifying things a bit, but as my post makes clear, 'all things in moderation' as well as supportive Bible quotations at the end, which, I think trump James I.
I wrote my post for two reasons: firstly, to combat misguided religious zealotry on the matter and secondly, to provide Scriptural and clerical support for tobacco.
Churchmouse
I enjoyed your post and I quite agree with you.
Thanks, Rose -- much appreciated!!
Churchmouse
west2
I have no idea how they will regulate aubergines.
The Nicotine Content of Common Vegetables - 1993
To the Editor: The presence of nicotine and its metabolite cotinine in the body fluids of nonsmokers is usually taken as evidence of exposure to environmental tobacco smoke. Recently, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention studied 800 people, both smokers and nonsmokers, all of whom tested positive for urinary continine.
There is considerable evidence that nicotine is present in certain human foods, especially plants from the family Solanaceae (such as potatoes, tomatoes, and eggplant). Castro and Monji;` Sheen,-' " and Davis et al. have reported on the nicotine content of foods and drinks':
We have been able to confirm some of their findings in our laboratory. Gas chromatography and mass spectroscopy-5 were used to determine the nicotine and cotinine content of common vegetables and black tea available from a local supermarket. The vegetables analyzed were tomatoes, potatoes, cauliflower, and green peppers."
http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/extract/329/6/437
Vegetable Nicotine in ng/g g per 1µg nicotine
Cauliflower 16.8 59.5
Eggplant (Aubergine) 100.0 10
Potatoes 7.1 140
Green tomatoes 42.8 23.4
Ripe tomatoes 4.3 233.0
Pureed tomatoes 52.0 19.2
Society for Risk Analysis 1995
Dietary Contributions to Nicotine Body Burden
"Recent USDA food intake surveys are used to perform a probabilistic analysis of dietary intake of nicotine. Using limited data on nicotine content of foodstuffs (tea, tomato, potato, green pepper, and eggplant) and the 198991 Continuing Survey of Food Intakes by Individuals (CSDII), the absorbed dose of nicotine is shown to be significant compared to present day environmental tobacco smoke (ETS) nicotine exposures."
http://www.riskworld.com/abstract/1995/SRAam95/ab5aa174.htm
Exposure to Second-Hand Smoke Widespread
Nearly 9 out of 10 non-smoking Americans are exposed to environmental tobacco smoke (ETS, or second-hand smoke), as measured by the levels of cotinine in their blood, according to a study conducted by HHS' Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC).
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/96news/nrsmoke.htm
Perhaps they just won't mention them.
Since I eat all of those, drink an awful lot of tea, AND smoke, I would have to conclude that I'm made of nicotine. Perhaps I'll be reclassified from 'human' to 'medication'.
British Beer and Pub Association chief executive Brigid Simmonds said "LALALALALAALALALALALAAALAAAALAAALA, NOT LISTENING,,,"
Churchmouse.
You are perfectly correct. You did not mention signs. I think that I must have become confused and attributed to you Rose2's post. My apologies to both of you.
But I think that my general argument was correct.
There seems to have arisen a general belief that THE LAW is sacrosanct. We must all obey THE LAW. But that is not true, is it? What we MUST obey is our CONSCIENCE.
The point that I made about 'no smoking' signs was that bishops and vicars should have said that 'IN ALL CONSCIENCE we do not agree, law or no law; and we will not desecrate our churches with these signs. If the government want these signs, they must put them up themselves. We will not'.
In general terms, the same principle applies to everyone. No wonder that certain government ministers regarded the ban as a great success. This is because they managed to 'get away with' forcing people to do things which seem reasonable in themselves at first sight, but, on mature consideration, turn out to be very unreasonable. In this respect, we observe that the law which requires notices is gradually being allowed to go away.
But we have not yet arrived at a point where the requirement of the law for owners of businesses to force people to comply has become redundant.
One cannot help but feel that it will. I think that it will become redundant when anti-smokers who physically attack smokers are applauded and glorified in the media.
There are only a few organisations which can contest this idea, which is pure propaganda. The Churches are capable of contesting this idea, if only they can stop getting their knickers in a twist about homosexuality.
Somehow or other, the legal requirement that publicans must force people not to smoke must be contested. It is not a simple thing, but it is basic to our rights as individuals. NB NOT human rights as defined by the law - we are talking about a basic right of individuals to associate.
Liberty
It seems they didn't bother to research the plant and it appears that they only found out that nicotine was a common plant chemical around the 1990's.
Being an amateur gardener and reading a lot of gardening books, I had known about that as long as I can remember.
They have been searching for something unique in tobacco.
Solanesol: A Tracer for Environmental Tobacco Smoke -1988
"Solanesol, a compound - expected to be unique - to environmental tobacco smoke is easily detected in air even at low concentrations of environmental tobacco smoke"
http://tobaccodocuments.org/ness/20844.html?zoom=750&ocr_position=above_foramatted&start_page=1
Wrong
ENVIRONMENTAL TOBACCO SMOKE –
ESTIMATION OF ITS CONTRIBUTION TO RESPIRABLE SUSPENDED PARTICLES –
METHOD BASED ON SOLANESOL DETERMINATION
"Many plants of the Solanaceae family, which includes the genus Nicotiana, of which the tobacco
plant is a member, contain solanesol; particularly those that contain trace amounts of nicotine.
These include the tomato, eggplant, potato, and pepper.
The potential interference due to these sources is negligible, cooking being the only likely potential source of interference. An interference of this type would bias results high, overestimating the contribution of ETS to RSP.
http://www.coresta.org/Recommended_Methods/CRM_52.pdf
But I really wanted to know what happened to nicotine when it burned.
Not being a chemist it took me ages to remember the correct word.
Science Dictionary: oxidation
"Any chemical reaction in which a material gives up electrons, as when the material combines with oxygen.
Burning is an example of rapid oxidation; rusting is an example of slow oxidation"
http://www.answers.com/topic/oxidation
"Niacin was first discovered from the oxidation of nicotine to form nicotinic acid. When the properties of nicotinic acid were discovered, it was thought prudent to choose a name to dissociate it from nicotine, in order to avoid the perception that vitamins or niacin-rich food contains nicotine. The resulting name 'niacin' was derived from nicotinic acid + vitamin."
"Niacin is also referred to as Vitamin B3 because it was the third of the B vitamins to be discovered. It has historically been referred to as "vitamin PP", a name derived from the term "pellagra-preventing factor".
http://www.chemie.de/lexikon/e/Niacin
niacin
"pellagra-preventing vitamin in enriched bread," 1942, coined from ni(cotinic) ac(id) + -in, chemical suffix; suggested by the American Medical Association as a more commercially viable name than nicotinic acid.
"The new name was found to be necessary because some anti-tobacco groups warned against enriched bread because it would foster the cigarette habit." ["Cooperative Consumer," Feb. 28, 1942]
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/niacin
If the circumstances weren't so dire, their incompetence would almost be funny.
A restaurant in London that allows smoking inside
At last I have found the perfect restaurant right here on my doorstep in Blackheath, an Italian restaurant, which not only serves excellent food but also allows you to smoke right there at your table inside the restaurant and in plain view of all and any passers by.
The name of the restaurant is DaVitos, and it is in the centre of Blackheath village. My wife and I have been going there for years, and are very friendly with the owner, but before you think that I was being offered special treatment because I am a friend, I can assure you this isn't the reason.
My wife and I enjoyed a beautiful meal there last night, and towards the end of the evening, I turned to see four women at the next table to us, all enjoying their cigarettes. "Yes" said one of them defensively, "We are smoking". "Great" I replied, "I thought I could smell something nice", and with that, both my wife and I also lit up.
Before you all start getting out your A to Zs and making your way to Blackheath, I feel it is time to put you out of your misery, and explain exactly what was going on.
I am afraid to say that after many years, DaVitos finally closed last night. "Do whatever you want" said my friend Clemente, "They can't put me in prison or fine me now can they, because I won't be here after tonight".
And so I am sorry to say that my good friend Clemente and his wonderful restaurant DaVitos is no more. But what I did notice, was that absolutely no one, in the restaurant complained when we all sat there smoking. Even people passing on the street outside could obviously see us, and we did not get one single hand waver, or sour-faced old hag muttering under their breath at us. Maybe, just maybe, the tide is beginning to turn?
Churchmouse: thank you for making clear that you are not the Churchmouse Publishing mouse, though I have no quarrel with that other, seemingly agreeable small creature. Re smoking and the clergy I think that over a generation our priests, ministers and lay 'role models' have had to be governed by the principle of concern for the 'weaker brethren' as in Romans 14: 20: 'All things indeed are pure' - but not (paraphrasing) to the person who regards its consumption as an offence. Perhaps many a vicar and churchwarden - and headmaster - has felt compelled to abandon his pipe in public out of consideration of the feelings of those taught to see smoking as a secular sin. Which has left the despised (secular) sinner, the smoker, without a spokesman in the Church.
David Milliband the Labour Leader contender does not get it on pub closures. Perhaps you would like to put him right.
http://www.davidmiliband.net/2010/08/01/david-miliband-announces-bold-plans-to-save-britain%e2%80%99s-pubs/comment-page-1/#comment-1945
Milliband is another one with his fingers in his ears LALALALALALAAAALAAAALALALA...
And how, in any way is a "Minister for Pubs" going to do anything without any remit to amend the ban?
"David Milliband the Labour Leader contender does not get it on pub closures."
David Bloody Miliband - ANOTHER NWO stooge.
He talked shit when he was at Education.
He talked shit when he was at Environment.
Two fairly important subjects that he doesn't quite 'get' either (and that's to put the BENEVOLENT view).
Just what you'd expect from a Secondhand Car Salesman with an Oxbridge degree.
But we expect him to talk SENSE on the ever-so-slightly controversial Smoking Ban, and its ever-so-slightly debatable effect on pub closures ?
I've said it before, and I'll say it again:
Cameron, Clegg, Miliband, and all the other New Master Race clones are not working for US.
They're working for THEM.
With (ahem) a Common Purpose - which does not include OUR Freedoms (which would tend to get in the way of The Big Society they're busily concocting for us all).
And if they could find a way to link Smoking to International Terrorism, Climate Change, and Paedophilia - they would.
Guess we'll just have to be patient.
And trust that the next Asteroid Impact is rather more selective than the last few have been.............................
Hello, Junican, Norman and Peter Thurgood -- Agreed, the C of E has not done its duty here in defending smoking -- not in the slightest. Had a discussion with our vicar when the ban came in -- silence. To be honest with you, I don't think they know Scripture or any church history these days. If they did, they could have helped.
Unfortunately, the stance today, it would seem, is that it is easier 'to go along to get along'. However, as an Evangelical Presbyterian Church page (from the US) states:
http://www.epc.org/about-the-epc/pastoral-letters/civil-disobedience/
'How should an individual respond when his rightful liberties are violated? ...
'"First, he must defend himself by protest (in contemporary society this would most often be legal action); second, he must flee if at all possible; and, third, he may use force, if necessary to defend himself by protest and the employment of constitutional means of redress. Rutherford illustrated this pattern of resistance from the life of David as it is recorded in the Old Testament."
'We as Christians living in a democratic society are able to exercise our freedoms as law-abiding citizens. There are many ways within the law to oppose evil and promote what is good. Praying for and working for righteousness within the civil law is the course that Christians should follow. "If God is for us, who can be against us?" (Romans 8:31).'
There is more at the link which explains all the references and scriptural quotations. It includes past opposition to bad law in various societies, including recent instances. The essay is short and well worth a read. It would seem that legal avenues must be pursued.
Peter, you have been fortunate to have a restauranteur turning a blind eye to the use of a legal substance (!) under this strange law of the land. I'm sorry to read that the restaurant has closed.
It is difficult to believe that it is legal nowadays for questionable things to be done legally (I shall not mention them), however, the use of a legal substance (tobacco) is illegal. Go figure. Something is very wrong with this picture.
I hope that someone can help, but it will take a strong voice in order to do this. Yet, smokers must not give up. (I never thought we would be having this discussion, quite frankly.)
Churchmouse
It must be possible (**hint -- SIMON**) to get a PR agency on board to publicise the truly fatal risk to smoking:
http://freedom-2-choose.blogspot.com/2010/08/welcome-to-fourth-reich.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+blogspot%2FqZch+%28Freedom+To+Choose%29
With that, I bid you farewell and best wishes. Hope to see the ban overturned. Anyone who doesn't care about this, doesn't care about civil liberties.
Churchmouse
"Anyone who doesn't care about this, doesn't care about civil liberties."
Or to put it another way - and in the words of the great Joni Mitchell (an unrepentant smoker, by the way):
"Don't it always seem to go
That you don't know what you've got
Till it's GONE........................................."
(They paved Paradise
And they put up a parking lot)
Think THEY care ?
I have been over to the Milliband site and commented. I see that Pat Nurse and Dave Atherton have been there also.
I would like to see a few others of 'our brethren' commenting there. Oddly enough, there are only a few comments (a dozen, or so).
The critical thing, I think, is to point out that his 'solutions' to the pub problem (undoing 'ties' etc) do not bring in customers.
It may be that people feel that there is no point in commenting in the belief that it is a waste of time because nobody reads the comments. That may be true, but I personally do not accept it. I believe that, if a politician has a website, he will want to know what what is being said. He may take no notice, but he will be aware in general terms of the general tenor of comments.
Oh. And can I just ask Simon Clark please to arrange any 'meeting' at the Lib party conference at a civilised time? I would love to attend since I live only 25 miles away from Liverpool - but 8.30am????? Some time in the evening would be nice. Whatever, one will try to be there.
@Martin V - "...And if they could find a way to link Smoking to International Terrorism...they would."
They have - they're claiming that profits from smuggled tobacco is funding Al Quaeda:
http://www.dailyexpress.co.uk/posts/view/189001/Smoking-ban-funds-Al-Qaeda-and-Taliban/
@Junican 1.23 - some of us use a different name on different blogs!
"they're claiming that profits from smuggled tobacco is funding Al Quaeda.................."
Well, at least the CIA - and its mates in MI6 - will be happy: funding these terrorist groups can be an expensive business.
What, with the recruiting, the training and equipping, keeping the Media Drones 'on message' etc, etc.
People have no idea - they really don't.
Any new income source is obviously to be welcomed, therefore.
Times is hard in poor old Oceania..............................................
Here's a few brilliant quotes from Gerald Warner's article in the Telegraph titled 'Decent British revulsion towards bullfighting in the land of the lunchtime abortion',
Who I think has the same opinion as a lot of us on this blog.
"The EU and the UN are working to establish a monocultural world government. Its malign culture is one of population control, secularism, relativist morality, materialism, self-conscious modernity, equality of all under the benign rule of the totally unequal governing elite. It promotes the New Man: cellophane-wrapped, emasculated by health and safety, dedicated to extending his meaningless and despiritualised existence by medical improvements, inhabiting cities rendered anonymous by globalised architecture and the ubiquity of international corporations."
Also brilliantly put "So was Ireland's ban on stag hunting last month, passed by just 75 votes to 72, making Fianna Fail TDs in rural constituencies an endangered species. After Ireland, supposedly a nation of undisciplined rebels and individualists, caved in to the smoking ban it was predictable the rest of its liberties would follow suit. Having shaken off the supposed "yoke" of Rome, it has turned into the docile serf of Brussels."
Brilliant, brilliant, brilliant.
Its great to see that an author, broadcaster and political commentator has his finger on the pulse and 'the others' copped on and it cheered me up no end to read it.
PS Left out this quote as follows:
"The intolerable antithesis of that Utopian future is any society that values tradition, that clings to custom, that engages in virile activities such as hunting or bullfighting, that serves God rather than Mammon. The free spirit who owns a gun, cherishes wildernesses not yet tamed into heavily sign-posted heritage parks, practises Christianity in the manner of his forefathers, respects animals as part of creation but would never equate their status with human beings - such men are a hostile spectre haunting the social engineers charting our global future. They must be eliminated and useful idiots in politically correct parliamentary assemblies are the instruments of the purge."
Sadly my post wasn't included on the Miliband site...I guess it was just too nice!
Another half-wit politician with his head in the sand. Of all the reasons he gives for pub closures is he misses the most important one…the smoking ban…not a single reference to it at all…and they wonder why they lost millions of votes in the last election.
With blind obedience to the political correctees of health fascism and tobacco control – you richly deserve to stay in opposition for ever!
With regard to being contacted by the David Miliband Campaign and receiving campaign updates…I’ll accept these with pleasure…I’ll simply print them all off and give myself a nice big fat pile of toilet paper!
ann -
'Brilliant' is the word.
Imagine a Political Leader's speaking like THAT !
With Passion, Humanity, and Wisdom.
Instead of:
Conformist Newspeak, Pop Sentimentalism, and Crassness-by-Design.
(Diana was a greater 'Great Briton' than Isaac Newton etc).
Glad to see that people are beginning to catch on, anyway.
At last.
Well, SOME of them.
Spread the word.
And teach ALL your friends about 'Plato's Cave'**: it's where MOST people live these days. Sadly......................................
**(Mr Google will help - for those who are not familiar with the reference).
The smoking issue has made it to Guido Fawkes site
http://order-order.com/
@ann - Wish that there were more Gerald Warners...
"...respects animals as part of creation but would never equate their status with human beings..."
I wasn't really astonished a few months ago when I heard that some people are now calling for dolphins and apes to be accorded human status (yes, really).
Peter, all trace of Madonna smoking has gone from the Mail.
But Wayne Rooney has been caught smoking YET AGAIN!!!!!!!!!!!!! OMG.