Monday
Nov082010
MP hails victory for Dutch smokers
Monday, November 8, 2010 Brian Binley, MP for Northampton South and a supporter of the Save Our Pubs & Clubs campaign, has again called on the Coalition Government to review the smoking ban "in light of the decision made in Holland to allow some pubs to reintroduce smoking".
Binley said: "The Dutch Government held their promise and reviewed the smoking ban two years after its implementation. The British Government must change their approach to this issue and review the matter as the previous Government said that it would. I am delighted by the decision in Holland to allow smokers back into the pub and it is a good sign for the mounting campaign in Britain."
Above: Brian Binley at the Great British Pub Awards 2010 in September
Reader Comments (69)
Licensee Mark Daniels writes in The Publican to take a leaf out of the Dutch smoking ban amendment book.
http://www.thepublican.com/story.asp?sectioncode=16&storycode=68363&c=3
Nope - me too :(
Hey, Dave - ten out of ten for the brass neck (no, Simon, it ain't just you - but I AM a LITTLE biased, I confess) ! Sheesh...............................
BTW -
If you squint just a little, that shadow under Cameron's nose turns into a toothbrush moustache...............................(I'm sure it means nothing).
Three cheers for Brian Binley MP...he has no intention of letting this rest...he's showing commitment and resolution.
His tenacity should inspire us all.
Common sense at last. About time.....Well done the Dutch
As a regular visitor to Amsterdam and as someone who used to live there, thank God. If only our own MPs have the courage to redress this insidious legislation. Come on Cameron & Clegg - DO SOMETHING about it.
The Anti-Smoking steamroller has been brought to a halt and has more cracks than a Convention of Nudists.
Really Eddie? I would never have put it in quite those terms.
Someone should make a list now of most tolerant places in the world to permit smokers to smoke and leave them alone and rank them all on a scale of 1 to 10, with 1 being draconian/Hitlerian and 10 being liberated/free.
In that respect places like UK, Canada, California, NZ, etc. could all be rated close to or at the bottom of list, with a 1 - while places like Netherlands and for the time being, Spain, could be rated higher on the list, something like a 10, maybe a 9 for Spain considering they are possibly opting for draconian coming up soon, should they go that way.
Then come holiday time and people go out to travel and spend their money, they would have a clearer choice to be made - do they visit a draconian/nannyfied #1 or do they opt for the more liberated/free-choice locales rated a #10.
A list like that would serve as a guide at directing where the one remaining manner in which some free choice is allowed still these days, by voting through their pocketbooks, travel and holiday consumers could have an option.
In time, then it might make visibly apparent, through way of economics, exactly what it is the people actually want and make government propaganda lies touting the opposite obsolete and laughable.
The wall might show some cracks and the floods might come pouring through once enough of that sort of unavoidably obvious evidence becomes manifest in reality and can no longer be denied, even by those who would still cling to their self-righteous selfish smoking bans who would no longer have the shield of propaganda lies to shroud them from light of day.
Hurray for Holland. I hope the new law sticks and then spreads around a little, liberalizing things up a bit, "liberalizing" in the sense the word used to mean, before Labour corrupted it into a fraud.
thank you brain binley keep at it.only these u.k politicians have hard heads.dutch people know second hand smoke and other nonsenses.but they look at the right thing to do.please keep push this issue to over turn the smoking ban so we can enjoy our pubs and clubs again in this cold winter.
Ian
Well done, Mr Binley. if I were in your constituency, I'd vote for you on the strength of your response to this one issue alone!
I don't smoke but I know a bad law when I see one. I don't have a problem with pubs that allow smokers. And if the beer's good, I'll go there regardless. Infact, sometimes, beer and tobacco are quite reassuring; it's what I was born into regarding pubs and therefore, something that I quite like. Health issues - yeah, just like global warming issues - it's all crap.
Keep up the good work.
I written comment after comment on sites like this. I need England to have pubs again. Seperate bars for smokers are such an easy option to apply as indeed are smoking and non smoking nights. The real problem is that non-smokers (who were allowed to vote on this) have absolutely no idea of the wrong they have inflicted upon us smokers. Poppin outside just doesn't work for us as and is akin to restuarant go-ers to being told if they wish to eat they must go outside. The pub ban may not seem so bad to majority of folk but the vast majority of folk rarely go to the pub. Pubs were kept alive by "REGULARS" like my wife and I who used to spend most nights in our local and who now have nothing to replace it. The revenue through fag tax easily outways the cost to the NHS if was directed solely to this Dept. Help us please .!
Some coalition governments, appear to actually listen to their people !
Please keep up your good work Brian Binley. The smoking ban here in the UK is ruining millions of peoples social lives. Pubgoers expect to be made welcome and comfortable, not to be forced outside onto the streets, in the freezing cold. Clearly this is why the pubs here are suffering. Smokers are being treated like a social underclass in this despicable country, its about time something changed.
At last a countries politicians who have some integrity and listened to the people they are elected to represent. Wont happen in the UK whilst our joint leader hides behind "bike sheds" to smoke, but lets keep the campaign going. Greece introduced a total ban this September. Lasted about four days!!! Takings down 60/70 %.in Tavernas and bars. Love the idea of "Smokers Guide Book". My wife and I only stay in hotels where there are smoking rooms, fly if we have no other choice and try to visit free choice countries whenever we can. GREECE 10. UK 1. Thats a start for the Guide Book.
Well done Holland! Let's hope we can now take things further and get the smoking ban amended in the UK and hopefully other countries will do the same. People are fed up with nasty left wing governments nannying them to death and as they gradually get voted out, sanity should return.
I am from Holland and of course very very very happy ! But I also feel the next step is to stop the smoking bans in nursing homes hospitals and so on here are people without a voice and have no choice We need a ground breaking revolution .
I think it would be a good idea to see this in legal terms . If non smokers have a right to a non smoking environment ( which I think they have within the freedom to choose )
there should also be a right for a smoking environment ! We have to not let this go but press harder and harder !
You would think the Netherlands was the only country in Europe to allow smoking, I have just returned from Berlin where you can smoke everywhere, its the same in Prague, you can even smoke in the airport, why don't you get a list written up about countries where you can smoke.
Thats the first step on the ladder taken by the Dutch. Common sense prevails at last. Smoking pubs no no no......Sounds like a pub full of chain smokers. Pubs you can go to and have a nice pint with your friends and a cigarette, with good ventilation. Maybe pubs could have the Public bar or the Saloon Bar as the smoking area, as previously mentioned. There should be a sign on the door warning you of the dangers of smoking and second hand smoke thus you can decide to enter or even work in the smoking area.
I think its time for smokers to have their trial period.
Joy! Hooray for the Dutch, I wish them well and hope I can visit soon!
@Jane. Here is a hypothesis. Imagine that there was a holiday website which included smoker friendly to smoker not welcome on a scale of 1 to 10. I would 'bet my bottom dollar' that the most popular countiries/resorts were the smoker friendly and the most unsuccessful the smoker not welcome...despite the fact that only 25% of the punters smoke.
this sounds good news at last, as it is so very sad to see so many of our clubs & pubs suffering or boarding up, lovely venues, not only so very sad for all of us
but our brilliant musicians , no one seems to understand just how hard they work, not just on their music but giving everyone a enjoyable evening. As the song goes "where have all the smokers gone" It's not the same without you all. aasap ammend as soon as possible.
Bob neill is the new Pubs minster, however which who CAMRA wanted remember before the smoking ban came in Camra said millions of people would return to the pub, where are they all? so anything camra says I think we need to take with a pinch of salt. the picture of David Cameron and David Liddington who voted for the Smoking Ban in Feb 06. just makes me sick he has not got a clue what our Pubs and Clubs are going through, if he supports this industry then amend the Smoking ban and that will get customers back in the Pubs and Clubs. The last goverment amended the ban for the G20 summit at Londons Excel centre with no problems, so after what's happend in Holland and Brian Binley's hard work hopefully common sense will return. Gary
Anna: 'The next logical step'?
The Smoking ban was originally intended for food centres such as resturants and cafes not pubs or clubs.
As a smoker i respect the rights of others and would go outside to smoke following a meal, but since the ban i have been make to feel like a social outcast.
The government constantly promote democracy in this country and your legal rights, and yet we are banned from sharing Social Inclusion in getting together in pubs and clubs to enjoy the company of others being allowed to smoke.
What will come next bans if you drink, bans if you eat junk food!!!!
we do NOT live in a Nanny state so WAKE UP UK get behind the vote to change this ridiculous ban, and give the people of this country a voice in being able to choose how to live your life.
CHANGE THE BAN!! allow choices which is what makes the UK a great Country, and stop Politicians from running your lives with something that is Legal to do and something you pay high taxes on.
UNDO THE BAN FOR PUBS AND CLUBS GIVE THE PUBLIC THE CHOICE IN WHAT IS SUPPOSED TO BE A FREE COUNTRY TO CHOOSE.
Tina
Lovely picture of Liddington and the PM. Are they the only two customers, perchance? Can't see anybody else. I wonder if they realise how that snap encapsulates the whole thing.
Its nice to see politicians with sense, albeit in Holland. I hope our politicians will soon see sense too.
Without a Dutch style amendment of the blanket smoking ban in pubs and clubs most of these places will cease to exist within the next 2-3 years. The reason is simple - all the justification for this original blanket ban ("only about 20% of people still smoke so it will have no impact on pubs and clubs") failed to recognize that there are literally hundreds of thousands of people who are 'social smokers' and who make up a disproportionately large percentage of the people who have traditionally been pub-goers. These people, who would never dream of lighting up in a restaurant or cinema/theatre, have over many years managed to wean themselves off dependence on cigarettes but still love a cigar/ciggie with a pint in a pub. Like me these people are NOT going to go back to pubs just for the beer. The pub industry miscalculated catastrophically when they allowed themselves to be rolled over by the legislation. Despite all the best efforts of campaigners the most effective course of action is probably for all social smokers to boycott in ever greater numbers their local pubs and clubs so that eventually the pub chains and bingo/social club owners exert real lobbying pressure on the Government. The loss of jobs and revenue will hopefully turn the tide.
Can someone tell me why the smoking ban is not in force in Westminster. How can politicians ban us from smoking in pubs but they can do it in Westminster.
@Maggie C
As far as I am aware the smoking ban in open places in Parliament is ahered too. The reason why the House of Commons is not subject to the ban is that it is considered the Queen's home. I have seen the outside smoking area too.
However as I have mentioned before I would like to allege that Glenda Jackson smokes in her office and is a hypocrite as she voted for the smoking ban, I also know a Tory MP who I will not name as he voted against it.
There will be no revival of the service industry until we do what the Dutch (and Danish) have done. They saw their businesses going to the wall and called a halt to it. You cannot hope to revive an industry when you are catering for 80% only of the potential customers that could walk through your door. I own a business myself - a mail order business. I have a database of clients that constitute my full business potential; if I wiped 20+% of the names of my database at random I too would go out of business.
Frank : I agree Logical would be a strange word in this case hahahaha
Recently we have been through Belgium and into Germany, in Belgium we stayed in a Hotel come Restuarant come Bar in a town called DiksMuid , at the front was a completely covered Conservatory type construction, along the Whole frontage of the Building. There was an ash tray on every table and food was also served throughout, doors were open to the main bar and the main Hotel reception and later in the evening the staff lit up patio heaters, which were erected upon the walls along the whole length, which was very comfortable, very welcoming and very sociable for all patrons.
Also a Hotel in Oostend where there was only 1 bar, where smoking was allowed throughout, during the whole evening and into the early hours, the only exception was whilst breakfast service in the mornig took place in the next room, smoking was forbidden for about 2 hours, which i thought was reasonable.
Whilst in Germany at a Chinese Restuarant, I asked where i could smoke, expecting to be shown into a back garden or outside, I was pleasantly surprised to be ushered into another room, where smokers could, eat, drink, smoke and be merry, very civilized indeed. Also at 2 further Hotel Bar and Restuarants, I again asked where i could smoke and was handed an ash tray with a smile and a Bitte ( thank you ) from the owner or manager, also being allowed whilst food was being served and consumed in the same room, No Problem to any other patrons, as they were also enjoying what we used to enjoy for many years, eating, drinking, smoking and chatting. WHERE'S THE PROBLEM IN THAT ! ?
Please Bring back Smoking in Pubs,Clubs,Bars etc, even if it has to be seperate air conditioned rooms, Please Bring Back COMMON SENSE !
Well done Mr Binley for continuing the battle to amend the smoking ban in England.
The position in Scotland is even worse however as the ban has been in existence since March 2006 and the Scottish Parliament has carried out no "post legislative scrutiny" of the Smoking,Health and Social Care (Scotland) Act 2005.
Politicians of all parties in Scotland have been brainwashed by the Anti-Smoking Organisations propaganda and refuse to accept that modern air filtration equipment is the solution to total smoking bans. If such equipment works in the NHS environment then it would work equally well in pubs and clubs.
The total lack of coverage by the BBC, ITV and SKY National News Bulletins of the reform of the Dutch Smoking Ban is an example of the "CENSORSHIP THROUGH SILENCE" that exists in the UK.
Rather churlishly, I forgot to offer my thanks to Brian Binley for his magnificent stand against the Controllers in all parties, and the do-nothing, shoulder-shruggers in his own. Many, many thanks, Brian !
Tina -
Re your comment that:
"The government constantly promote democracy in this country and your legal rights.........."
With respect, the 'government' does nothing of the sort. All it 'promotes' is ITS own agenda - and if you don't fit in with it - then, tough !!!
As to the 'democracy' argument - well, THAT is the problem. 'Democracy' is simply the Rule of the Majority. And if The Majority believes that Smoking is a filthy, disease-provoking habit ('cos it says so on the telly etc) that should be outlawed in its entirety, then any decision made and executed by government on THAT ground would be justified as being 'democratic'. And, of course, it could (and would) produce any number of 'surveys' to underscore the point.
And if government wishes to introduce measures that are manifestly unpopular with The Majority - then it will employ pretexts OTHER than the 'democratic' one to justify them (and we can by now ALL provide examples of THAT little stratagem).
A 'democratic' decision may be wholly right (eg Support the Genuinely Needy) or wholly wrong (eg Export all Pakistanis). In neither case does it address the ETHICAL aspects of policy.
And so long as we look to The Government to lead us to the Promised Land, so long will we be THEIR chattels to with as they please. This has to change. And if this nasty Ban has radicalised (for the first time) civilsed, intelligent, and freedom-loving people around the Globe to meditate upon What's Really Going On, then it might just - in a perversely unpredictable way - in fact have done us ALL a huge favour.
We must - and some time soon - re-learn the art of looking to OURSELVES and EACH OTHER to create the kind of life we most of us want, and some HIGHER PRINCIPLE than Perfect Bodily Health and an endless supply of Playground Toys to sustain our freedoms. And cut Government down to size. Right down.
The actions of our Dutch friends is but one tiny example of what COULD be done - if we only exercised a little imagination, and took a little peek outside the Cave now and again.
While we still can.................................
I believe there should be choice in restaurants and cafes too for those of us who like to drink tea and eat bacon butties more than alcohol.
Taking a cig outside after a meal is like asking a non-smoker to step outside with the after meal coffee.
Choice means choice and not just choice for the pub industry! All leisure places should offer choice!
Hello This is a wonderful Idea, lets all keep this up. Its madness that so many pubs are closing down. Whats wrong with Ventilation?
Well done Holland I am 66 years old and when I was a little boy going to school in Ealing London I would see maybe as many as half a dozen cars on my two mile walk to school. No childeren in my schoool suffered from athsma, point one. Point two if I and my freinds shut ourselfs in a room all night playing cards and smoking the worst thing that would happen to us is maybe soar eyes and throats, if however we shut ourselfs in the garage with the car engine running for half an hour we would be DEAD! So lets have an end to this anti smoking hypocracy by drivers and politicians who support the ban.
"Whats wrong with Ventilation?"
I put THAT very question to a lady at Conservative Central Office three years ago, Amandah - and was curtly informed : "We've tried it - and it doesn't work."
Kindly note the 'we' in that sentence. The Conservatives were still in opposition at the time - and had, in the main, voted against. I wonder whom she was referring to ? Clearly, not her party rank and file (aka the Lobby Fodder). At any rate, it was from precisely that point that my (party) political re-education began.
Such is the dumb-arsed stupidity that Brian and his friends have to contend with - and from his own side, too.
What I don't understand is why the pub owners in the UK complied They where heading for the fall anyway Loosing customers . If the pubs just had refused like the pub owners in Holland to take the ashtrays away there would be a very different situation now. they went bankrupt for lack of customers They might as well went bankrupt fighting !
Martin V.
"Ventilation doesn't work" was one of the Anti-Smokers key arguments and the statement from "Repace" that it would require "Tornado strength winds to work" is often quoted.
Ventilation while making an establishment more comfortable does not remove particulate contamination in the air whether it is smoke, dust,vehicle exhaust gases or pollen.
This is the stance that the Anti-Smokers will always take and if there is any chance of amending the ban the term "ventilation" should be replaced by "air filtration" as a solution.
i am amazed that there is one government within the eu that shows some common sense.well done holland.now lets see what our lot do.
We are a married couple who when we first met went out every weekend without fail until the smoking ban. We feel that paying over £5 for two drinks and then standing outside for a smoke is just not worth it. Why should this or any othere goverment take the tax from smokers and then tell them they can't smoke in most places. Yes i agree there is places where we should not smoke (where fod is served) but im sure if some pubs were allowed to let people have there drink and smoke it would not hurt the majority of people. Take our £8 billion pounds in tax's but please give way a little so we can still enjoy our nights out.
The law certainly needs reviewing.
I am a pipe-smoker & a quick drag outside the pub door is no use to me or my fellow pipe-smokers. The existing law in effect bans me from all pubs & clubs in my own country as well as preventing me from staying at hotels.
I have been a law-abiding citizen. Now as an OAP I am not able to spend an evening in a pub nor holiday in the U.K.
Surely we can be permitted "smoking" pubs, clubs & hotels?
On ITV today there was mention of a study just published that stated 25 Percent of the UK population suffered from depression.
As a result of the smoking ban:-
I am depressed because I am a victim of the Governments "hate" campaigns.
I am frustrated at the lack of collective action by smokers to fight this ban.
I am angry at the UK media for their biased reporting or non-reporting.
I hate the Anti-Smoking lobby for their misrepresentation of the truth.
I deplore a ban that divides society and promotes social exclusion.
In other words living in this country is Hell on Earth.
ABSOLUTELY FANTASTIC...My partner and I both smoke and would go out every night at 8pm for a drink. Since the no smoking ban we have not been in a bar since. I could not beleive that the breweries did not stand up for our rights as customers. We felt if they could not support us we could not support them. Come on breweries fight with the campaign and your customers rights. We have to take a stand. Governments should learn they are put in office by us, they are not our masters but our servants.
The Unwelcome Guest - 2005
How Scotland invited the tobacco industry to smoke outside.
"Obtaining support for the use of ventilation is a tactic also outlined in BAT's project care report, which is described as concerned with "resocialising smoking" by gaining support for air filtration.
"The ultimate objective is to win the support of non-smokers to retaining the availability of the indoor environment for smokers"
http://www.ashscotland.org.uk/ash/files/The%20Unwelcome%20Guest.pdf
"the tobacco industry"
"If you take part in secondhand smoke policy training in the tobacco control movement, chances are that you will be taught that all opposition to smoking bans is orchestrated by the tobacco industry, that anyone who challenges the science connecting secondhand smoke exposure and severe health effects is a paid lackey of Big Tobacco, and that any group which disseminates information challenging these health effects is a tobacco industry front group."
http://tobaccoanalysis.blogspot.com/2007/04/in-my-view-brainwashing-in-anti-smoking.html
They demand that there should not be a speck of tobacco in the air, even though the same plant chemicals are eaten everyday by almost everyone and in much greater amounts.
ENVIRONMENTAL TOBACCO SMOKE –
ESTIMATION OF ITS CONTRIBUTION TO RESPIRABLE SUSPENDED PARTICLES –
METHOD BASED ON SOLANESOL DETERMINATION
"Many plants of the Solanaceae family, which includes the genus Nicotiana, of which the tobacco plant is a member, contain solanesol; particularly those that contain trace amounts of nicotine.
These include the tomato, eggplant, potato, and pepper.
The potential interference due to these sources is negligible, cooking being the only likely potential source of interference.
An interference of this type would bias results high, overestimating the contribution of ETS to RSP.
http://www.coresta.org/Recommended_Methods/CRM_52.pdf
If they had accepted ventilation or air filtration then they would have no excuse for making people stand outside like lemons, for the purposes of denormalisation.
"Hammond et al state that "social denormalisation" strategies seek "to change the broad social norms around using tobacco—to push tobacco use out of the charmed circle of normal, desirable practice to being an abnormal practice".
http://tobaccocontrol.bmj.com/content/17/1/25.full
As a member of the Armed Forces I presently reside in Germany so consider myself quite lucky to escape the smoking ban in the UK. In the camp messes and all buildings we are not allowed to smoke as they come under "British Rule" and if you go out for a smoke you are often branded a "dirty smoker", however if you venture down the local town you will find both smoking and non smoking bars, a friendly, welcoming manner and a determination by landlords to accommodate everyones needs and make their evening a pleasant one (even the non smoking bars' staff seem apologetic when they inform you of such).
I do not ask for much out of life, just the freedom to enjoy a night out without freezing and without snide comments. The Uk government claims to condemn bullying or harrassment of any kind yet it has given the non smoking population (not all) carte blanche to vilify smokers huddled together outside just trying to have a cig. That is why that on a Friday and Saturday night there is a maximum of two people in the Sergeants Mess whilst the local town is thriving.
Eddie -
Thanks - and yes, I take your point. I must admit to some verbal sloppiness there myself. In my defence, however, I would suggest that 'filtration' is what most people mean by 'ventillation' (ie something a little more sophisticated than an open window) -and the Antis know it. And that includes the lady at Central Office. I suggest they're being just a little perverse here (perish the thought).
Perhaps 'air conditioning' would be a more pertinent choice ? I rather dislike smoking in tornadoes. It makes the cigarette burn far too quickly, for one thing.