UKIP and the smoking ban
Saturday, January 16, 2010 Further to my post about Hamish Howitt and UKIP, I have been directed to an interesting and apparently well-informed article on a site called Counterbalance. I could easily imagine the article appearing in Private Eye, and I say that as a compliment. See HERE.
Looking at the bigger picture I don't doubt that reversing the smoking ban is official UKIP policy, but I see little evidence to support the suggestion that "UKIP has been, or is being, hi-jacked by the pro-smoking or publican lobby".
I've had a quick browse around the party's website and I can't find any reference to the ban - or fighting it - at all. See for yourself HERE.
I can't even find a reference to the party's Save The Pub campaign. I know it has a separate website HERE but if the party is serious about the campaign surely there should be a banner on the main site with a link to the Save Our Pub site on the home page?
On closer inspection I don't think the Save The Pub website has been updated for quite some time. The most recent item appears to have been published on 20 March 2009. Draw your own conclusions.
All this has strengthened my belief that my decision not to develop closer links with UKIP - which I was invited to do last summer - has been vindicated.
Put simply, the party has too many mavericks and too many internal divisions to be a stable partner in any campaign or political initiative.
PS. This post was written before I read THIS story!
Reader Comments (30)
Simon
In fairness the UKIP site does refer to the save our pubs campaign, albeit obliquely and buried in the boilerplate, under "features" - a piece from April 2008.
This seems a watered down version of their support. When I last looked a few months ago I'm pretty sure there was a link banner to the pubs campaign on the front page and stronger wording on what their attitude is/was.
Perhaps the work of Lord Pearson in the post Farage era?
Blackpool must be the anti-smoking capital of Britain.
Despite Simon's well-reasoned reservations about UKIP, I still feel it should be taken seriously - if only as a political work-in-progress.
From MY perspective, the ideal solution would be a mass defection from the Tory Party of genuine liberty-lovers, worried about the political direction we're going in.
This would provide UKIP with much-needed ballast, and enhance its credibility in the eyes of a growingly-disillusioned electorate.
Highly unlikely, I agree - given the generally low calibre of today's MPs.
But, stranger things have happened (eg over Irish Home Rule and Free Trade).
Home Rule For Britain, anyone ?
In another topic below,I posted an email received from UKIP dated 14 January 2010. I repeat it here:-
"Dear Ms Johnson,
You can find our position in the policy paper here: http://www.ukip.org/media/pdf/pubs.pdf
We will be the only party giving publicans and clubs the right to choose.
Best wishes,
Tim Aker"
...............................................
I've already requested that the link banner be returned to the front page as soon as there is permanent space. UKIP started their "Save the Pubs & Clubs Campaign" long before Forest did and are still dropping beer mats into the pubs etc. However they did give congratulations and a good mention when Forest started their's.
Only a change in governmemt can really reverse the damage of the smoking ban. With huge internal reorganisation and preparation to field 550 candidates, the front page is vital for rolling news.
Nigel Farage has not gone away and the policy has not changed.
Simon's other subject in this thread is Nicky Sinclair. This can be viewed as a bad attack of sour grapes. It was dealt with by Nigel on the Andrew Marr Daily Politics show last Wednesday.
Hope this helps, folks. Now I'll just have another fag and a bit of Telly - it's been another long day. Up with the Plebs!
It is 2010, the UK has become inhospitable, and I am seriously struggling concerning the forthcoming general election.
I voted Conservative in 1979. I have been a member of the Labour Party. I once voted LibDem in a local election. I would have voted SDP when they existed had there been a candidate in my constituency. I voted UKIP in the recent Euro election.
I was all set to vote UKIP this year, but I am having second thoughts. UKIP show signs of instability, which is natural in a realtively new party. Is this a good time however to give them my vote? It may look good if UKIP get a good percentage, like it did for the LibDems in the 1980's, but we do not have PR. 25% voting for a party gaining 11 seats is not democracy.
I am forgetting the blanket smoking ban for a moment. There will be three possible outcomes this year. Another Labour Government, a Conservative Government, or a hung parliament.
There are three things which the Conservatives, the oldest polital party has. Strong back benchers and ex ministers who will speak out. Despite some of their recent statements, I cannot see them being anywhere near as severe as the present government. Finally, and I hope this does not lose me too many friends, the Conservative Party never has and never will be run by feminists.
Timbone -
I take your point about the Less Bad aspect of the Tory Party.
But - with respect - I think you may be deceiving yourself. It's been a recurring theme of mine (that's 'rant' in Guardianspeak) that the 'Conservative Party' that you are considering voting for simply NO LONGER EXISTS.
Power - since Howard's reforms - is now even more concentrated at the centre, and the new Keyholders-To-The-Kingdom have amply demonstrated their unwillingness to listen to, much less do anything about, the genuine - and traditionally 'conservative' - concerns of the wider membership, and the electorate beyond.
Cameron's earlier 'We have changed' routine was a LITTLE more than a PR stunt, designed to woo disconsolate homosexuals, neurotic housewives from Ambridge, and a muddle-headed Yoof.
He really meant it.
Hence all the blather about All-Wimmin Shortlists (and they won't be OUR sort of woman, you can bet). The Feminists have Dave in their pocket.
And the smoking Issue CAN'T be put to one side, I'm afraid: it's absolutely CENTRAL to the question of Personal Liberty, and an INFALLIBLE indication of the Political Mindset we are dealing with.
The Cameron Clan merely knows BETTER than NuLabour What's Best For YOU.
And YOU have NO say in the matter.
I, for one, have no intention of voting for the New Fascism - even if it has now been re-branded as 'Liberal Paternalism'.
I don't want Less bad.
I want Better.
We're a LONG way from 1979...................
Martin V
I wish I'd had time to read the Blackpool article before now, but I've no time. Didn't even get to bed last night, just dozed fitfully on the sofa struggling to get the energy to go to bed. Didn't eat except nibbles. No alcohol involved. Whenever I see a suggestion here that UKIP seems to have dropped their pro-choice smoking policy, I just have to leap in and reassure readers, especially new ones, that this is not so.
The Blackpool article shows the dangers for UKIP of being labelled with any extremist policies.
They have only one extremist policy - holding a Referendum to get right out of the EU. To do this they must get MPs elected into parliament and create a hung parliament. This is how the very politically unpopular Churchill became Prime Minister in our hour of greatest need.
People take for granted that UKIP are already the second largest British contingent in the Brussels EU Parliament. Nigel Farage and his ELECTED UKIP team has been fighting our cause out there and doing a brilliant job. He's also had to find stuffiest UKIP equivalent parties to join him and form the new Freedom & Democracy group, which he leads.
To stop Nigel Farage having a voice, new EU rules were introduced during the summer recess. All political parties must have a sufficient number of different countries within them to even get the right to vote. The well stuffed "Yes" party has always been full of our Tory & Labour MEPs plus LibDems, if any.
Meanwhile, all leaders of our ruling parties back in the UK parliament have been doing the opposite. They have betrayed us and sold our country to the Stazi EU. I would love to see the size of their secret Swiss bank accounts.
Let's face reality. The Lisbon Treaty is a legal binding document and it finally came into force on 1st December 2009. They are holding back the full force of their takeover until after this coming election. Then, with a hung parliament, Nigel can force a Referendum, [started already on UKIP website] and leave EU completely by simply not paying them any more money.
Meanwhile - prepare for the hounds from hell to start the UK attack on us. All branches are having AGMs this January - mainly to sort out the EU funded infiltratin within our midst. [That's why I've no time to eat, sleep, etc. So forgve haste and spelling. At least I'm on topic.
timbone - I agree. I'm anti feminist too regarding political leadership. . .
Margot -
In MY case, let me assure you, you're already pushing at a three-quarters-open door.
Nigel's bloke-ish persona - which sits ill with the insufferable snobbery of the Bourgeois Left - masks a shrewd political intelligence, I'm sure.
I like him.
Please keep us posted on developments.
As to 'Feminism', the late Aaron Russo was told by his NWO buddy, Nick Rockefeller, that the movement (in the Sixties) was essentially started, and funded by, You Know Who.
And the saintly Gloria Steinem - quondam editor of 'MS Magazine' - had been a CIA stooge since her student days:
http://www.savethemales.ca/180302.html
Sound familiar ?
"How queer everything is to-day !........", said Alice.
Yes - the Rabbit Hole goes VERY deep.
And most people still don't realise they're in one...........
I go along with what Margot and Martin V says.
Looks like the dirty tricks brigade are gathering forces for the attach.
As your resident Tory who is an activist for them and probable council candidate, UKIP at the moment have my sympathy.
As someone who has had a drink and a smoke with Nigel Farage, I can confirm that they are sincere.
I think that all political parties have short term problems, for example with the expenses problems I expect MPs and Lords from the Labour party to before a court of law on fraud charges. That is far worse what is described above.
UKIP are trying to get the message out on their other policies but the press and TV seem to be slow on the up take, so hence they have not made a too big a thing about the smoking ban.
"Yes - the Rabbit Hole goes VERY deep…. And most people still don't realise they're in one.." - Martin V.
There's the rub, Martin. It all started so long ago. The old etiquette that politics and religion must not be discussed at social gatherings was very useful indeed. It's at social gatherings that both SHOULD be discussed if we are ever to achieve freedom from oppression. I was sharply reprimanded by my family at my son's 39th birthday party yesterday. The majority of his friends don't bother to vote, because "They are all the same". Or they vote Tory because they've always voted Tory.
Ann - Yes, the forces of evil are gathering now. They are within UKIP from top to bottom. And the EU pockets are very deep.
The really sad thing is that Nigel Farage has been overseas fighting to save our country and very few know about this. The cost to him personally and his health must be enormous. Back at home within the party he created and had to trust, the enemy were within.
They say every man has his price. Who among us would turn down an untraceable million or two pounds just for a little innocent looking bit of action? [Well I for one would turn it down, and there'll be a few more like me.] Nigel must have been made some stunning offers by now just to shut up and ship out. He almost single-handedly has stopped the Lisbon Treaty for eight years. Still he is vilified at home by our EU bought establishment.
What have these Leaders been doing all this time within their comfortable little lives? Bringing our country to its knees. Shame on them.
Now we have support for Nigel right here at home. Our new Leader, UKIP peer,Lord Pearson, has the power and will to sort out this terrible disgrace from right within the Houses of Parliament.
Watch out for the enemy fireworks though!
Dave Atherton.
Yes, Dave, as a dedicated Tory, you have always been very fair about Nigel and one of the few people who have actually met and had a smoke and drink with him.
I believe six peers are earmarked for expenses scandal treatment. I'll bet Lord Pearson is one of them. If so, let's see how differently he is treated from the rest. He is an honest man and not schooled in double speak like the retired professional politicians.
[Hope you do not become so, too, Dave. You've been a very learned and hardworking ally to our smoking cause for a long time now. Good luck in your future career, whatever it turns out to be.]
Having been in UKIP for a couple of years (after being a Conservative voter and member), I can honestly say that there are some decent people in there who are anti-prohibition eg. Nigel Farage and Godfrey Bloom MEP for Yorkshire/Humberside. At a regional level, when I attended meetings, opinions were very divided. I only hope (for UKIP's sake and those on here who support them) that it is the people such as Nigel F and Godfrey B whose pro-choice views and values remain. As for Blackpool being anti-smoking - this is so very laughable as it used to be the main resort for all the working class folks from W Yorkshire and surrounding areas to take their holidays! No wonder recent reports suggest that places (pubs, clubs, boarding houses etc) are closing down left, right and centre!
Jenny.
You've hit the nail on the head. This is why I asked you on a previous thread what your branch had done to upset you. I too have been within the centre of my branch committee for about two years. It's deliberately been kept small and elderly and out of reach for the scattered wider membership. In effect, it is the old Referendum Party, which is Tory based and simply want to get out of the EU. The last thing they want is a strong UKIP party led by the sincere Nigel Farage right inside parliament and in opposition to the Tories. It's no secret that the leaders of all three parties have already been bought by the EU and EU money can stretch a long way down.
I forced them to stand candidates in the June elections for all six districts in our constituency. Three of the candidates were comparitive newcomers like myself. We didn't want to gain seats - we are too old. We just wanted to fly the UKIP flag. The results were astounding and headlines in the local newspapers. We came second in two districts and third in the rest. In some our vote topped the combined Labour & LibDem vote. Labour gained no seats.and LibDem gained one. After that, I was virtually sent to Coventry and they started to close down the hatches. I cannot committhe next bit to print - but it is horrendous in duplicity.
Tomorrow is our AGM and you can imagine my dilemma today, Key figures are determined to resign and disappear. I am the only one left who is computer literate and not self serving. I am expected to stand for the committee and take over the poisoned challice sight unseen. It's far too near the election to be able to reach out to the wider membership and we will not have the funds or manpower.
In the midst of all this, we have found a candidate! He is a good man. Honest and true to the principles of Nigel Farage. All my time is being taken up helping him through the minefield of red tape which has been deliberately set up. He is willing to fund himself and prepared to battle alone if the branch just has to be dissolved tomorrow or finds a way to continue without having someone like myself on the committee. I simply can't do all of it. It would be impossible for someone even half my age.
So I say to everyone - if you see a UKIP candidate on your ballot sheet - vote for him! He will be a true Farage supporter even though there has been no TV coverage and no glamorous leaflets to back him. The main thing is to spread the word and get people to vote. They simply don't realise that there really is an alternative with sound realistic policies and not carrying the drain of the billions we must pay to the EU to further destroy us.
The rot within the party, the old Referendum Party, do NOT want MPs in parliament to support Nigel Farage and the real UKIP. Remember that this rot stretches from the bottom of the party to the top and has been gathering its sludge together since after the June elections.
Thanks for listening! Now I must prepare all the paperwork for tomorrow.
Please get back in there, Jenny. Don't let the bastards get you down.
Margot, you are to be commended for the work your are doing, it certainly is an uphill battle for you and all UKIP supporters, as is always the case when a new party is being formed.
Hopefully the disillusioned in the electorate will realise there IS an alternative for them in the next election.
Margot - I still firmly believe that there are some very good people in there. I think it also very much depends upon the area. Sadly, I think UKIP is often 'badly organised' (hence people finding it difficult to join etc.), but the impression I got was that there are certain folk who have got in there, become established and they don't want newcomers to 'threaten' their little empires.
I stood in 2008 for a rural district council election and gained 32 votes (beating Labour) and miles behind the Conservative who won. It was great experience and I learned a lot about local government practices/procedures. In my area, frankly, it is a waste of time standing for UKIP because later this year (whenever we get an election) it will be the Lib Dems fighting to retain their parliamentary seat aganist the Conservatives. The Lib Dems will most likely win, but UKIP could simply take some votes away from the Conservatives - ie. split the vote and in this area that could prove disastrous. I don't want to be responsible for doing anything like that. I have also decided simply to remain 'neutral' for a while and not belong to any particular political party. Yes, some people did 'upset' me a little regionally, but I don't allow that to cloud my view of UKIP and what it stands for. Now that the General Election is drawing nearer, I am starting to look at the overall picture. There are some areas where I believe UKIP could do very well - but my area isn't one of them, being realistic. I hope this answers your query to some extent! :)
Jenny
Thanks for your explanation. Of course there are some superb well cordinated UKIP branches throughout the UK who have reached out to the essential younger generations and gained their support.
Your own branch may just be old people who don't want their little social group to be widened but it may be what I have described above. I'm pleased you will remain open minded but if you think that you must vote Conservative against the LibDems, the best scenario for the new parliament would be a hung parliament containing UKIP and not dominated by the Tories. The Labour party does not stand a chance any more.People look at the state the country is in and blame them for it all. Historically it is the turn for the Tories again. Remembering that the EU are now controlling everything, this is what the media will encourage. The Liberals, no matter how much they change their name, have never got into power. Nor will they now - they too are bought and paid for by the EU and will never call for a referendum, let alone repeal the destructive mmoking ban. .
Keep an open mind and watch what goes on. That is what we all must do. Above all - encourage people to vote. Their future lies in their own hands and all they have is their vote.
.
Margot Johnson, I am sorry to be rude to you on my first post on here but what you have written is pure crap! You say the best scenario for the new parliament would be a hung parliament containing UKIP. Do you have any idea what you are talking about?
Do you know what a hung parliament is about? It doesn't sound like you do!
A hung parliament cannot do anything. It cannot make any new laws or rules or regulations, because that would take all the parties involved to agree, and you should know that they cannot agree now, so how the hell would you expect them to agree then?
Your knowledge of politics seems very thin on the ground when you speak of the Liberals having never been in power, maybe you should brush up on your history a bit more. Gladstone and the Liberal Party won the 1886 General Election. A long time ago admittedly, but they still won nevertheless.
How do you expect anyone to take notice of you when you speak about a hung parliament being a good thing, and you get your facts wrong regarding who has and who has not been in power?
Our country is already in one of the worst financial messes in history, and I can assure you that a hung parliament would make things decidedly worse. From what I have read of your beliefs you are interested in one thing only, and that is the promotion of your chosen party, UKIP, to the detriment of this country as a whole!
So Gregory, Labour and the Tory's have a proven record of being good for England, you reckon?
A hung parliament might be just whats needed in the present climate.
And the fact that they cannot make any new laws or rules or regulations can only be a good thing.
Dont worry about that, our EU masters will make up for them in spades!
"maybe you should brush up on your history a bit more. Gladstone and the Liberal Party won the 1886 General Election. A long time ago admittedly, but they still won nevertheless."
What about Lloyd George (1916-1922)? Or had you forgotten about him?
And I fully agree with ann - the one thing this country doesn't need at the moment is "any new laws or rules or regulations"!
So you fully agree with Ann do you Ricks? You wouldn't like to see a new law brought in to overturn the smoking ban then wouldn't you?
We need a WORKABLE government if we are ever going to get the smoking ban overturned or amended. A hung parliament can never achieve anything!
OK, Gregory, of course I want to see the smoking ban amended - but that would be more the removal of an existing law than the addition of a new one.
The problem is that the only workable governments possible at the moment are the Tories or Labour - and neither of them is remotely likely to do such a thing. All either of them seem to be promising is the passing of even more restrictive legislation against lifestyle choices - and a situation where nothing is achieved, while being far from ideal, would be better than that!
You need a WORKABLE government to do anything. You need a WORKABLE government to AMEND a law or OVERTURN a law.
It would be criminal to vote for STAGNATION.
The sad thing is that there is very likely to be stagnation. This government has deliberately imported millions of people (to work and sponge) during the past 12-13 years and given them all the right to vote. It is highly likely that they will vote for this government - known as the 'grateful vote'. Disillusioned folks will either abstain from voting or cast their votes in the manner they personally wish.
My prediction is that the conservatives will make it, but will not have much of a majority. There will be a hung parliament. There's no chance of a UKIP landslide!! Also, after today's 'banning the burka' announcement, that should lose them a few more votes as well as attempting to gain a few from the BNP. Sorry to be somewhat controversial and straightforward in my approach, but that's the way I personally see the 'lie of the land' at present. :(
Mr Simonds
We are in the 21st Century. It is a time of global oppression and instant world-wide communication. To hark back to the time of Gladstone is ludicrous. As for Lloyd George - the less said the better! His contribution to our soldiers dying at a rate of thousands a day in the appalling conditions of the trenches was to look the other way and craft his own career. Brush up on your own history!
In any case, that was a different world. In modern times, the Liberals have never been in power.
If our masters are to be believed, this country is now bankrupt. Every penny raised by the extra taxation ahead will be needed to pay off the deficit and pour, at a rate of £60 million per day, into the greedy paws of our masters the EU. All election promises made by the three parties are inoperable from an empty purse. Once the election is over, this country will be directly governed by the EU.
A hung parliament produced Churchill. He over-road the professional politicians around him. When Germany first blanket bombed London, they advised him to accept a peaceful surrender so that no more British citizens would be killed and our cities destroyed. They pointed out that Germany had already conquered the rest of Europe. We were ill equipped and stood quite alone - far better to surrender immediately and save us from more bloodshed and destruction.
Then came Churchill's voice on the radio:-
"We will fight them on the beaches; we will fight them on the, etc........We will NEVER surrender."
Nigel Farage is our present day Churchill. All he needs is a free unfettered voice on the TV and in the media.
Remember always that the ordinary people throughout Europe do not want to be under the jackboot of the EU either.
As for my credentials, most people on this blog know that for many years I have conducted historical tours throughout Europe. This includes many to the battlefields of both wars. I know something of which I speak. I hope this useful thread will not disintegrate into bickering about historical fact.
Let's continue the discussion about the plastic puppets who lead us now and what they can or can't achieve = which is absolutely nothing unless we leave the EU completely.
You are talking absolute rubbish Ms Johnson. A different world? The only different world is the one you live in, the one where UKIP are seen as something real instead of a jumped up little would-be party, which is all they ever are and will be.
Modern times Ms Johnson, what are modern times? In a world as old as ours, the world of the Victorians and the Edwardians are indeed modern times. If you want to throw around unreal facts, such as the Liberals have NEVER been in power, then be prepaired to be put in your place. They have and I gave you one clear example.
As for Nigel Farage being a modern day Churchill, that is yet another of your belittling of British politics. I am a Liberal voter by nature, but Churchill was without a doubt the greates politician the last century
Wow!!!
Well done Margot!
Mr. Simonds, your last post (19:57) doesn't actually say anything.
Margot, it was me that mentioned Lloyd George - but only because Gregory was talking about Gladstone as if HE was the last Liberal PM, and I was tentatively suggesting that Gregory should also brush up on his history before attempting to cast aspersions on anybody else!
PS I didn't know that you conducted battlefield tours - it's something I've always found fascinating and moving.
Mr Simonds
You say, "The only different world is the one you live in, the one where UKIP are seen as something real instead of a jumped up little would-be party, which is all they ever are and will be."
UKIP are the second largest British party in the EU Parliament. The Tories have 26 seats, UKIP have 13. How many do the LibDems have?
If you reread my post, I suggested that people should not vote Tory just to stop the LibDems getting in, I said that it would be good to have some LibDems in it.
This will be the last General Election we will ever have unless we can achieve a hung parliament including Nigel Farage and a few more UKIP MPs. Our citizens were PROMISED a Referendum. They must have it while we still remain as Britain and with voting rights.
The new EU map, based on Hitler's original one shows how Britain will be divided up into five EU regions. My own, the South East, was completely taken over by the EU in October 2006 and renamed The Trans-Manche Region. This is administered directly by unelected bureaucrats in Paris. The region stretches from Paris right through to, and including London. This, of cause, includes Westminster with our Houses of Parliament plus TV and the media.
Now THAT is an historical fact and already has caused closure of our Post Offices, fortnightly dustbin collections, a tax on each farm animal which creates methane, etc. etc.
The name England will disappear completely except in an historical sense.
Up to date detail can be found via www.theeuroprobe.org and many other sources.
I must go now. [AGM looms at 10.30]. May continue later if this thread is still running.
Mr Simonds - please continue to vote as your conscience tells you. That is the right we all still have. .
UKIP is evolving and it is still the only party that is growing from the bottom up. The others are insignificant and work for their own self-interests.
I will pay for myself to stand as a UKIP candidate if I have to and I can assure you that it is on UKIP record that if voted in I will do two things other than the EU issue which are 1) abolish health quangos and divert the money into direct NHS patient care and 2) fight for choice and an amendment to the smoking ban. I know there are other candidates like me and those who don't smoke, or know nothing of the smoking issue have been very supportive to smokers choice.
I have also read with my own eyes a response on a forum by Paul Nuttall who replied to a disgruntled non-smoker who was unhappy with UKIP's policy on amending the smoking ban.
Paul said that given UKIPs committment to an amendment, and given it's close links with F2C, this person had to accept that it was UKIP policy or find another party to support.
I am convinced that it is still the right party to break the three party alliance. UNilt that is done, we will never be free of this awful dictatorship. I say take a chance Simon. What have you to lose, really? Not much I think. The other parteits don't care about this issue.