Lib Dems (and ASH) want plain packaging
Friday, September 4, 2009 Politics.co.uk reports that "Pressure is growing for the government to rid cigarette packets of their designs and branding ahead of a parliamentary vote next month. The Liberal Democrats are trying to reintroduce an amendment to the health bill – due to be debated on the day parliament returns from summer recess – calling for the government to scrap cigarette pack designs."
The story is in response to a news release from ASH which claims that:
New research from the University of Nottingham published today shows that tobacco branding and packaging send misleading ‘smoke signals’ to young people and to adult smokers.
Participants in the Nottingham study were shown pairs of cigarette packs and asked to compare them on five measures: taste, tar delivery, health risk, attractiveness, and either ease of quitting (adults) or which they would choose if trying smoking (children).
Adults and children were significantly more likely to rate packs with the terms 'light', 'smooth', 'silver' and 'gold' as lower tar, lower health risk and either easier to quit (adults) or their choice of pack if trying smoking (children).
More than half of adults and youth reported that brands labelled as 'smooth' were less harmful than the 'regular' variety.
The colour of packs was also associated with perceptions of risk and brand appeal. For example, compared to packs with a red logo, cigarettes in packs with a gold logo were rated as a lower health risk by 53 per cent of people and easier to quit by 31 per cent of adult smokers.
I'd be interested to know what the smokers who read this blog have to say about these findings.
Full story HERE. It includes my reaction.
Simon Clark
I am told that the Lib Dems tabled an amendment to the Health Bill calling for plain packaging but this has now been removed. To the best of our knowledge, however, the party's health spokesman Sandra Gidley remains an advocate of plain packaging which brings to mind the title of our event at last year's Lib Dem conference: "How liberal are the Liberal Democrats?"
Reader Comments (64)
All I know is that some £5 million has been poured into this project to create the result that the Govt obviously wants.
That this bunch of wet-wipes are supporting it is yet further evidence why smokers should NOT vote IlLibDem at the next election.
"The latest research shows............"
Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
Since all cigarettes are equally harmful, being unable to distinguish one brand from another will change nothing. No smoker ever stopped because his gold pack smooth, less harmful cigarettes became unavailable. Many smokers will buy cigarette packet covers to brighten up the pack. Behind this, perhaps, is an attempt to stop smokers smoking tobacco brought abroad; but that will fail too, as smokers will transfer their cigarettes to plain packs.
There is nothing much that is either "Liberal" or "Democratic" about the Lib Dems. See, for just one example, their call to have people vote for blocks as opposed to parties in the EU elections in order to stop fringe and "undesirable" parties getting elected.
All I can say is that it's a good thing that criterion was never applied to them for not so long ago they were naught but a fringe party themselves.
They are a another nanny state party and in that respect no different from Labour or the Conservatives. When it comes to personal freedom issues, only UKIP are different. I hope the latter never compromise on these matters.
Liberal Democrats? Don't make me puke!
A whole lot regarding this 'research' depends on what questions were asked and how they were asked - as with any survey! As we all know, these questions are couched in such a way as to produce the results required.
As for plain packaging being used to 'highlight' those buying their cigs abroad - at the moment that is still legal, but I wonder for how much longer?
Whatever they do, plain packaging, hiding tobacco products under the counter, making it illegal to buy cigs abroad and bring them back into the UK, the black marketeers will have an absolute field day! After all, governments have not yet succeeded in beating the illegal drug trade or to stop under age drinking or binge drinking, so I don't suppose for one moment they will have any better success rate with smoking, whatever measures they adopt!
Perhaps we need a new dictionary which gives the changed meaning of words we once thought we knew the meaning of!
Plain packaging reminds me of the Lib Dems for some reason.It must be their exciting aura, and promise of the great libertarian country they would re-establish.
As for the plain fag packets, they would become even more attractive and seductive for kids. What planet are these jerks on?!
And to think that I once used to vote for them.
I'm feeling rather ashamed about that these days.
Idlex -
Re:
"I'm feeling rather ashamed about that these days."
Don't be !
To CONTINUE voting for someone who doesn't reflect your principles - THAT would be shameful.
And too many still do it................
I read your reaction on Politics.co.uk. Good strong comments from you Simon. Well said.
Dick Puddlecote nailed this the other day in that the membership is liberal but the politicians are illiberal.
To bring matters full circle Simon and Mark Littlewood of Liberal Vision are having a debate as previously discussed on here on the 22nd September in Bournemouth at a fringe meeting at the liberal Democrat Conference. At last years conference, Mark had written a piece about how many Lib Dem MPs will be losing their seats at the next election. One of the named MPs was Adrian Sanders who suffered from the red mist descending and pushed Mark over a wall.
With ideas like this the Lib Dems will suffer from wipeout.
"Can Lib Dem Bloggers Change Lib Dem Policy?"
http://dickpuddlecote.blogspot.com/2009/09/can-lib-dem-bloggers-change-lib-dem.html
"Liberal Democrat party conference: MP 'shoves' spin doctor."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/liberaldemocrats/2967445/Liberal-Democrat-party-conference-MP-shoves-spin-doctor.html
I like the look of that Marlboro packet, tres cool and contemporary. Pity about the bollox in the black box although it does have a nice aesthetic, juxtaposition an' all that. The more 'they' try and make things unappealing the more they fail.
'Politicians seriously harm you and others around you' they should put that in a black box and plaster it all over parliament buildings around the world.
Right, that's my idea before anyone nicks it. T-shirts on the way.
But wjy white packaging? Could that also be misleading? Maybe black is better?
Can't wait for the new, plain, sexy, cool packaging to be introduced, so much more stylish than the present packaging.
When any of the main parties start advocating micro-managing measures such as plain packaging for cigarette packets, it just goes to show how much power over laws has been taken away from Westminister. If we are not going to leave the EU any time soon, then we need a mass cull of MPs - 25% or more. They obviously have so much time on their hands, if they put forward such nonsense as this measure.
In the 1970s, there was a slip inside a cigarette packet with advice from HM Government Health Dept. One of these was to try and change to a brand with a lower tar yield. I wonder what research took place so that eventually, last year, there were television ads telling us that the tar yield made no difference, in fact, lower tar could be more dangerous!
I was shocked when I read in Chris Snowdon's excellent book that the average tar yield in cigarettes in the 1930's was 43mg (nicotine 3.5mg). The 'evil' cigarete manufaturers have lowered this over the years so that now the average is 10mg tar and 0.9mg nicotine. One of the Silk Cut variety has reduced the tar to 1% I believe.
In my first paragraph, I asked what research has changed lower tar/safer cigarette to all cigarettes are the same. Again, reading between the lines, Chris gives the answer. If smokers/potential smokers know that less tar means less harm it will slow down the ruthless anti smoking machine.
From Dave Atherton's link:
Adrian Sanders, 50, was apparently angry after Mark Littlewood, 36, said he predicted that two thirds of Lib Dem MPs, including Mr Sanders's Torbay's seat, would be wiped out at the next election by the Conservatives.
I hope Littlewood's right. Now that most LibDem MPs aren't in the least bit liberal, I really don't see why any liberal should vote for them. I can only suppose that the people who vote LibDem these days are ignorant, fleeing Labour voters.
we need a mass cull of MPs - 25% or more.
75% or more would be more like the ticket.
"Adults and children were significantly more likely to rate packs with the terms 'light', 'smooth', 'silver' and 'gold' as lower tar, lower health risk and either easier to quit (adults) or their choice of pack if trying smoking (children)."
I don't know abut anyone else but anything that is branded 'light', 'smooth' or even worse "lite" I avoid like the plague because these terms always mean less flavour, whether it be cheese, butter, soft drinks (as in diet) and cigarettes. The fact that these brands exist is to some extent because of government pressure/interference.
Timbone, as i am sure you must know smoking a Silk Cut is just like talking to yourself as all the smoke escapes through the holes in the edge of the tips. A total waste of money.
Anyone for a JPS Black or (if only I could still afford them) Peter Stuyvesant Gold!
I'm afraid all this packaging nonsense is way above my head.
What the hell are they talking about.
Does it mean that packs of fags will be in colour form without a brand name and will they not have tar content on them!
Jesus wept its hard enough to be able to afford a pack and get a decent smoke these days without all this shite.
Its amazing and with the state the economy is in, that these headbanger Lib dems should be focusing on trivia like cigarette packaging.
The whole bloody lot of them should be thrown in the themes.
The Illiberal Undemocrats ?
£5million: is this really what that research cost or did I misunderstand something? Social services and cottage hospitals around the country struggle, squabble and crave for sums like that to pay for essential services for the frail and ill: services for which there is an undeniable, urgent need.
And this research, if it can be graced with such a name, comes, ironically, from Nottingham, the home of the legendary Player's Navy Cut cigarette with its lovely packet depicting a bearded sailor and blue, choppy seas.
I live in a LibDem stronghold (Harrogate-Knaresborough area) - that's why most of the pubs/clubs around here are almost empty most of the time and To Let/For Sale boards are increasing in number. I've mentioned this before and I shall repeat it - they are a bunch of boring PC do-gooders.
"they are a bunch of boring PC do-gooders....."
Who are doing so much HARM..............
Not for the first time in History, Jenny.
These people - much less intelligent than they think they are - tend studiously to avoid the experiential wisdom of our Ancestors, which is distilled in those boringly-familiar maxims they once taught in primary schools. Such as, for example:
"LOOK - before you LEAP !"
Kipling's 'Gods Of The Copy-Book Headings' - now
replaced by the Gods of Progressive Thinking.
Which is why, I suppose, we are nowadays all SO much happier..............
Margaret Thatcher shouldn't be the only one to read Kipling.
I've just finished reading novels by Fay Weldon, PD James and Julian Fellowes each of whom, through their characters, expresses their resentment and unhappiness with politicians' micro-management of our lives and the feeling of oppression that now pervades this country. Somehow, it seems a significant step - I haven't come across topical political comment in any of their other novels.
I wonder when the population is going to crack? I think it'll be after the GE when people realise that things aren't going to be different.
Joyce -
Glad to hear the penny might have dropped with Fay Weldon at long last.
Not before time !
Just a thought. If UKIP is going to become significant, it way well be that the best chance is to take on the Liberals in their strongholds, rather than Labour or Conservative in their strongholds. If I was a Lib supporter and a smoker, I might well find UKIP to be a very acceptable alternative.
This Unversity of Nottingham research is so mind-bendingly silly that it is hard to see how anyone, even LibDems, could possibly take it seriously.
There is an implication that a bunch of students were given a project - ask some members of the public some questions, without giving them a chance to think about what they were doing or saying, and tick some boxes on a form. Like, "Of these two cig packets, which do you think suggests that the cigs are less harmful?" Tick. "Which looks 'more tasty'?" Tick. "Which looks prettier?" Tick.
It would be interesting to know how EXACTLY this research was carried out. That is, what stringent controls were in force?
I would ask the question, "Where were these research results published?" How can I, an ordinary member of the public, find out?
That ASH takes this research seriously must surly indicate that ASH is not an organisation to be taken seriously. A bunch of amateurs - just like BREAK,
To nail them as such, serious questions have to be asked about this Nottingham Univeristy research. Can FOREST do it?
The survey-questions suggested the idea that certain terms or pack-colours or typefaces may give people prescribed ideas about the products.
Respondents were not asked to assign their own words, only to respond to the silly notions they were given by the "researchers".
Which is more evil? The red or the blue?
There was no box for Not Evil.
Junican/Basil -
If God himself were to intervene with a guaranteed 'cancer-and-all-other-diseases-free cigarette' that was positively Life-enhancing - even to non-smokers in the vicinity - the goblins at ASH would still commission a 'study' to prove that God had got it wrong:
"TOBACCO MORE DANGEROUS THAN PLUTONIUM, SAYS NEW REPORT" (Guardian)
What was that old saying about Idle Hands......?
Martin.
God himself HAS intervened. He did it during creation.
Man has used the tobacco leaf as a great healing herb since time began. In jungle times it was used to rub into wounds as well as smoked in the "pipe of peace". It was smoked at meetings of tribal elders to assist in making policy decisions. It was even chewed and then spat out by cowboys in the Wild West.
All these unassociated people, down through the centuries, could not have been wrong.
Incidentally, the tar in tobacco smoke is not harmful and it is a pity that nicotine content in cigarettes has been so reduced. The tar creates a mucous lining which absorbs germs breathed in. It then causes the cough which expels them.
No I am not providing links, folks, I've said all this so many times before. Just read for yourselves the many books written on the subject and also the scientific papers. Most are available on-line. Just plough through the "Benefits of Smoking" topic in the Lounge Bar of the F2C Forum.
UKIP is the only vote that makes sense to me.
The cig. wrapping will not bother me as I have been smoking roll ups for a year now.
I carry them in a small plastic pouch (a tiny bit of parsley for freshness) and pop it all into a cute silver case.
Lib. Dems are a joke.
Margot -
Yep - I've read all the relevant material, too. It makes fascinating reading, doesn't it ? But, my, what a tedious job it is to try and 'educate' the Unbelievers.
There's an interesting parallel (of sorts) with the history of scurvy:
In 1535, a North American Indian showed the explorer Jacques Cartier how to cure the scurvy that had ravaged his ship's crew - by making an infusion of treee bark and pine needles (rich in Vitamin C). The cure was immediate - and startlingly effective.
Nonetheless, the medical 'establishment' disdained such 'witch-doctor cures', and it took another 200 years for the Liam Donaldsons of the day to catch on.
Result: posssibly a million sailors in the Royal Navy alone lost their lives - needlessly.
It would seem that the battle between True Science and False Science continues to this day.
So much for Education !
Luckily, God didn't have the Ugly Sisters - or that brooding pederast, James VI - to contend with:
He left THAT job to US...........
Now Listen the Lib Debs are a great bunch. I got Rowen in my area and all he thinks about is hospitals and how people are dying of smoking related diseases
Now way the Lib Debs will even think about amending te ban and I will reapeat myself no other party will do either and that includes UKIP Margot and Peter T.Cameron waste of time. U will see.
Lincoln: Good venue and nights by all, wonder what happened to the other 125000+ smokers in the city and surrounding areas ? Maybe i am just sceptical now.
that brooding pederast, James VI
That's James VI of Scotland, and James I of England, who said:
"Smoking is a custom loathsome to the eye, hateful to the nose, harmful to the brain, dangerous to the lungs, and in the black, stinking fume thereof, nearest resembling the horrible Stygian smoke of the pit that is bottomless."
"That's James VI of Scotland, and James I of England,"
Interesting quote that, Idlex and Martin. Hadn't heard it before. All I know is that his popularity was so great he had to escape pretty damn quick from England. Legend has it he tried to steal some of the crown jewels but accidentally dropped his bag in the Thames as he crossed Tower Bridge. I don't know about that but I do know he then spent the rest of his life in exile in Bologna. His companions were the 5,000 strong other exiles from England. These mainly consisted of Debtors and over-successful Duellers.
Does that remind us of any other powerful Scottish ruler of England?
That was a rhetorical question, of course.
Please substitute Boulogne for Bologna. A hasty spell-check let me down.
People should look at Dick Puddlecote's latest offerings.
It seems that 'researchers' have discovered that tobacco smoke in cars is worse that tobacco smoke in pubs/clubs.
Cutting a long story short, it seems that they are comparing smoke in cars with smoke in pubs AFTER the ban!
Here is what is most interesting.
They say that there are 10 MILLIONTHS of a GRAM of tobacco smoke in cars per CUBIC METRE of air.
Is it possible that a proper scientist (or even an MP) could tell us how such a miniscule quatity could possibly do us or our children any harm?
no suprise, after all the so called Liberal Democrates are just a silly little political party that follows any rubbish that the Labour party and groups like ASH commands.
Now Now Margot and Idlex. Ha!
Junican -
Re:
"Is it possible that a proper scientist (or even an MP) could tell us how such a miniscule quatity could possibly do us or our children any harm?"
It's at PRECISELY this point that The Experts fall back on................(fanfare, please)
'THE PRECAUTIONARY PRINCIPLE'
No, of course we can't actually PROVE that Coca Cola produces three-headed baby hydras.
But it MIGHT !
I believe - though cannot at this stage prove - that the person who invented this beautifully effective piece of psy-ops nonsense has been awarded the Joseph Goebbels Medal For Creative Idiocy by the 'Guardian'.
And it certainly keeps the bleating Sheeple in line...............(esp the Ewes with their adorable Little Lambkins in tow).
Margot -
That wouldn't, perhaps, be James II you're referring to, would it ?
A grandson of the Auld Tobacco-Hater, whose Absolutist tendencies led to the well-named Glorious Revolution ?
Could do with one of those now............
James VI & I hated tobacco but threw drunken parties (euphemistically called masques) and had a predilection for 'close' friendships with young men...
As with the antis of today, he hadn't quite grasped the concept of glass houses and stones.
King who sparked a witch-burning panic
"Johnstone believes James VI had several motives for pursuing similar witch-hunts in Scotland - asserting his own position as King, strengthening the nascent Church of Scotland against the Catholics and using the testimony of the "witches" against his enemies, including the Earl of Bothwell, who was next in line to the throne and who, James was convinced, was trying to kill him.
"There had already been witch trials before, but the so-called North Berwick Trials were different because they directly involved the King," says Johnstone. "There is evidence that King James and James Carmichael, the minister of Haddington, were party to a witchcraft plot that entrapped many innocent people"
http://news.scotsman.com/spookystories/King-who-sparked-a-witchburning.2352798.jp
That wouldn't, perhaps, be James II you're referring to, would it ?
I think it would be. Here's James I:
In early 1625, James was plagued by severe attacks of arthritis, gout and fainting fits, and in March fell seriously ill with tertian ague and then suffered a stroke. James finally died at Theobalds House on 27 March during a violent attack of dysentery
James II became King on the death of Charles II in 1685. His reign didn't last very long. He fled to France in 1688.
But they're really all the same, these Jameses and Charleses and Henrys. A bit like ASH and the EU and the WHO and NuLabour.
I'm older than James I was when he died. I don't suffer from arthritis, gout, fainting fits, tertian ague, stroke, or dysentery. And nothing else either. I just cough a bit in the morning. And I've been smoking most of my life. I must be doing something right. But our blithering modern nannies insist I'm going to die 'prematurely'.
How to do italic writing.
It's easy really. You just have to put < i > in front of the bit of text you want italicised and (/i) after it.
Oops! Scrub that.
"......I'm going to die 'prematurely'."
The way the World's going, Idlex (think you deserve to be capitalised) - we're going to wish we HAD died 'prematurely' !
Interesting Historical Note:
They BURNED witches in Scotland, France, and Germany.
But:
They HANGED witches in England and 'America' - unless the charge was doubled with Petit Treason (in the case of the ladies).
Hammer Films and the BBC have a lot to answer for........
In our more enlightened times, however, they merely put them in charge of quangos.
Happy days !
It makes more sense when you read the rest of the vile rant, its mostly on religious grounds.
..
"And now good Countrey men let us (I pray you) consider, what honour or policie can moove us to imitate the barbarous and beastly maners of the wilde, godlesse, and slavish Indians, especially in so vile and stinking a custome? Shall wee that disdaine to imitate the maners of our neighbour France (having the stile of the first Christian Kingdom) and that cannot endure the spirit of the Spaniards (their King being now comparable in largenes of Dominions, to the great Emperor of Turkie) Shall wee, I say, that have bene so long civill and wealthy in Peace, famous and invincible in Warre, fortunate in both, we that have bene ever able to aide any of our neighbours (but never deafed any of their eares with any of our supplications for assistance) shall we, I say, without blushing, abase our selves so farre, as to imitate these beastly Indians, slaves to the Spaniards, refuse to the world, and as yet aliens from the holy Covenant of God?"
and on and on ..
http://www.laits.utexas.edu/poltheory/james/blaste/blaste.html
It makes more sense when you read the rest of the vile rant, its mostly on religious grounds.
..
"And now good Countrey men let us (I pray you) consider, what honour or policie can moove us to imitate the barbarous and beastly maners of the wilde, godlesse, and slavish Indians, especially in so vile and stinking a custome? Shall wee that disdaine to imitate the maners of our neighbour France (having the stile of the first Christian Kingdom) and that cannot endure the spirit of the Spaniards (their King being now comparable in largenes of Dominions, to the great Emperor of Turkie) Shall wee, I say, that have bene so long civill and wealthy in Peace, famous and invincible in Warre, fortunate in both, we that have bene ever able to aide any of our neighbours (but never deafed any of their eares with any of our supplications for assistance) shall we, I say, without blushing, abase our selves so farre, as to imitate these beastly Indians, slaves to the Spaniards, refuse to the world, and as yet aliens from the holy Covenant of God?"
and on and on ..
http://www.laits.utexas.edu/poltheory/james/blaste/blaste.html
Thanks Martin V & Idlex for putting me right historically. Thanks also to Rose2 who researched the exact words used.
The following is significant for today:-
"Shall wee, I say, that have bene so long civill and wealthy in Peace, famous and invincible in Warre, fortunate in both, we that have bene ever able to aide any of our neighbours (but never deafed any of their eares with any of our supplications for assistance)..."
Ring any bells?
Those were dreadful times to have lived in. The whole lot of us here would have been burnt at the stake or hung as heretics by now.
Mind you, keep an eye on the Lisbon Treaty - it could happen yet.
Margot
A little snippet that I hope may be of interest - it seems that we have been doing it all wrong for 400 years.
Harvesting the Blossoms
"Tobacco plants began to blossom about the middle of June; and picking then began. Tobacco was gathered in two harvests. The first harvest was of these blossoms, which we reckoned the best part of the plant for smoking"
http://digital.library.upenn.edu/women/buffalo/garden/garden.html#XIII
The lady very kindly tells us exactly how it should be done.