No excuse for violence and intimidation
Wednesday, March 25, 2009 I caught a bit of the Victoria Derbyshire show on Five Live this morning. The subject was the attack on the home of former RBS boss Sir Fred Goodwin. I'm not here to defend Goodwin's record (or the size of his pension) but I was struck by how many callers were revelling in his misfortune.
It wasn't just the self-proclaimed "anarchist" or the deluded anti-capitalists. One caller, a "company director", said he "smiled" when he heard the news. Others said the same. What sort of person would "smile" at the thought of someone's house and car being vandalised?
I hold the government partly responsible for encouraging this sort of behaviour. After all, it's only a few weeks ago that Harriet Harman told BBC1's Andrew Marr Show:
"Sir Fred should not be counting on being £650,000 a year better off as a result of this because it is not going to happen ... The Prime Minister has said it is not acceptable and therefore it will not be accepted. It might be enforceable in a court of law this contract but it's not enforceable in the court of public opinion and that's where the Government steps in."
Politicians should be careful when they target specific groups or individuals for special opprobrium. Needless to say I include smokers, "binge-drinkers" and those who are overweight or "obese". Given the green light by those in power, is it any wonder that some people take that criticism to the next level?
Reader Comments (29)
There can never be any excuse for violence under any circumstances even though the govt does incite hatred for certain groups and individuals.
I do wonder who will be targeted for social exclusion and aparthied after smokers.
Will we see a not too distant future, perhaps, where fast food outlets like McDonald's might be ordered by Govt health officials to make their entrances narrower?
It's all too frightening to think about and yet it's thoroughly ridiculous. Have I lost my sense of humour?
Yes, politicians need to be very careful about hinting that people should take the law into their own hands, as it potentially opens the door to mob rule.
If Sir Fred had been killed or injured in this attack then his blood would have been on Harman's hands.
I know that I am going to get some flak for this comment, but I will do it all the same. Many of the cabinet ministers who incite predjudice are women. The Health Minister who led the broken promise of a partial smoking ban was a woman. The main speakers for Charities such as ASH and other Government sponsored smokefree organisations are women. If there are comments made about green issues it is often made by a woman. I am sure this could be added to.
I am not anti woman, I believe in equality. I am just saying what I see that's all.
Sorry.
Timbone - I agree with you. Sadly, this is so. The extreme zealots and bigots in everyday life are usually women too.
Achieving equality with men was a hard won fight and needed in every respect, but these women take it far too far. Equality was never intended to become superiority. They are grotesque. They make a laughing stock of the female gender.
Yes but the incompetent ZanuLabour have set a dangerous precedent .
It is not the role of a responsible government to incite hatred ,which in this case is what they have done.
Not to mention the aformentioned denormalisation of other social groups.
It's the sort of thing only an idiot could not forsee.
So once again they prove their naivity and incompetence in government .
Inciting mobs to persecute certain "targets"is
the tactic of the Nazi ,Stasi ,third world dictator.
They'll be calling their next target cock'aroachez i'm sure.
But im sure they have made sure "their" massive pensions ,fiddles ,and scams are safe.
The hypocracy is mind boggling.
Mind you when you look at Mp's in general a lot have previous criminal records so it's to be expected for dishonest people to behave like that.
I've learned to go by the driving-style, Tim.
Take it from the politically-insensitive and largely anonymous old tart that I am:
Because, according to my self-selecting sample of at least two, my survey said that successful careery metro-lefty wimmins are rubbish lovers. Demanding is the first word that bubbles forth, followed swift as a clicked-finger by selfish, insensitive and curiously masculine.
Reassuringly, the usual rules of Labour lying, extreme hypocrisy and double-speak apply to the personal as well as the political. Paid-underlings are treated like shit and expected to be grateful for the opportunity; lovers are one rung up from that but still expected to achieve target service-levels and continuity of outcome-equalities in her favour. Where appropriate, extensive use is made of the child-card in the battle to achieve total control.
I may enjoy the odd bit of enemy-action, but I've had a re-think on Kerry, I'm afraid.
Pat Nurse.
I do not know if there is never an excuse for violence. When do you stop being downtrodden and fight back? Maybe if there was an underground group of smokers along the lines of The Animal Liberation Front storming the offices of ASH or kidnapping Liam Donaldson the tide may turn. Could demand a £2 cut in the price of a packet or an amendment to the smoking ban before releasing him [ minus a couple of fingers]. I even have a name.
S mokers
N ationwide
U nited to
F ight for
F reedom.
By the way I am only kidding and don't want my name added to any subversive list.
It's obviously a measure of just how angry people are, I think, in general. If the vandals in this case get away with it might we see further vigilante action against particular people or groups?
BTW I read (can't remember where) that HMG had passed special legislation to allow smoking indoors at the G20. Can anyone confirm whether this is true? If it is, surely a protest would be quite appropriate - the G20 will get extensive media coverage and the hypocracy would be exposed to smokers who are unaware of this.
Michael Peoples - Mahatma Ghandi
I should add, that Ghandi is proof that you can win without violence. We may be downtrodden but we are better than that. If the cause for choice resorted to violence, then I could no longer support it!
Pat. I really was kidding and not trying to open the military wing of Forest!
Down the years, in my experience, I suppose that it was usually women who became antismoking. They had usually been occasional smokers, who would regularly bum a cigarette off me. They'd continue to bum cigarettes off me even when they'd "given up". Then they stopped going to pubs because they were "too smokey". And then they'd ban smoking in their own homes. Usually this was accompanied by assorted food fads, going vegetarian and so on (but wolfing down the occasional bacon sandwich all the same), and taking up some cause like Save The Whales.
Most men didn't behave like this. They didn't mind people smoking, even if they'd given it up. They didn't engage in food fads. And they didn't sign up to Save The Whales.
That said, the first antismokers I ever encountered were men. One being a nutjob doctor, of course. They tended to be crusaders against the evil vice. For them it was a moral and political and medical cause.
The women weren't like that. They weren't crusaders. They just gradually recoiled away from tobacco smoke over quite a long period. Maybe it's simply that women tend to generally be more self-conscious than men about their personal appearance, and to more readily notice untidiness (cigarette butts) and odour (cigarette smoke). And also women tend to generally be more caring and considerate than men, particularly towards children, cats, dogs, and ...whales Add to that the promotion of women into public life as ministers in a Labour government, and the next thing you've got is a full-blown nanny state.
I sometimes think that it's all going to end with pubs becoming all-male environments again, with children forbidden, as masculinity comes to the fore once again. In the past couple of years I've heard a surprising number of women speak of the need for a masculine presence. Straws in the wind?
I do not believe what I am hearing here. Do you not know that men are superfluous to this planet? You are not here because you are needed in any way, you are here simply because we have allowed you to be, almost as a favour.
Of course it is women who commit to such brave decisions as saving the whale, saving the black polar bear and saving the planet come to that. If we did not, where would you ignoramuses be?
As for women being the only ones to recoil away from tobacco smoke, even the male of the species, the few who are normal that is, have the good sense to do that. You, Mr Idlex, are a fool, but having said that I am so glad that there are people like you about, because it is you and your ilk, with your unsubstantiated rubbish, who keep the smoking ban in its place.
No worries, Michael. Just stating where I stand on the issue, is all.
BTW, I don't think Jane Seedling is real. She wouldn't waste her time here if she was. She'd be hugging trees somewhere else.
That's a hell of a trick Jane, operating a computer keyboard while wearing a straight-jacket.
Jane Seedling - Your comments I take it are your attempt at being ironic, a simple joke or just tongue in cheek. If they are none of these, then frankly, you should audition for a part in the Crankies!!!
Idlex - I have met as many anti-smoking men as anti-smoking women. I don't think dislike for cigarettes or the smell of smoke is gender-based. It's based on ignorance born from misinformation, put out through propaganda, and encouraged to create prejudice and exclusion.
What I do hate about modern "wimmin" is their refusal to accept that we are, finally, equal to men and we don't need favours or hand-ups in the work-place if we have the merit. These "wimmin" are often the very ones that prevent other sisters climbing the greasy pole while doing nothing for those women trapped by domestic or cultural gender inequality.
I work in the private sector.
We have to produce results to keep our jobs.
We employ Women we employ Men .
Unlike the Public sector I don't see any Wimmin.
The reason I think is because we don't employ for Political reasons.
I'm a "Wimmin" employ me on a fat salary as a "Wimmins" issue coordinator oberst- stumfeuhrer job (for political reasons).
I know for a fact we've employed gay men and women.
Wev'e employed East europeans, Asians, Africans, Muslims,Jews ,(sorry to put jews and muslims together in the list apologies to both jews and muslims), Chinese, Spanish,Rumanian, Somali,Smokers, Boozers,Junkies,Spliffheads.Cokeheads.
But alas no Wimmin.
You see we need to produce constructive results not confrontational notions based on whatever "wooden leg", you have.to be carrying around.
On merit, not because your a "Wimmin".
I have never met a Wimmin who has any merit.
"I may enjoy the odd bit of enemy-action, but I've had a re-think on Kerry, I'm afraid."
Point taken Basil. Kerry McCarthy may be a career woman with a fair share of personal oddments, but is she dangerous. By comparison, could Patricia Hewitt, Caroline Flint, Deborah Arnott, Amanda Sandford, Harriot Harman, Jackie Smith, Jane Seedling et al run a blog, have a sense of humour, banter with their visitors.
Pat Nurse said: Idlex - I have met as many anti-smoking men as anti-smoking women.
Really?? That's not been my experience. But then 'the chaps' tend not to advertise their woes. Stoic indifference is the order of the day.
What I do hate about modern "wimmin" is their refusal to accept that we are, finally, equal to men and we don't need ....
Then we may have at last reached the 'tipping point', to borrow a phrase from Global Warming mad science.
I used to be sympathetic, but it has all pretty much drained away now, I've begun to Hate The Whales, and all the wimmin and their screaming childrun, and their rules and regulations about almost everything.
And yet I pretty much wholly bought into all this until recently. I've somehow undergone a complete turn-about. There's something residually male in me which just can't stand it any more.
I just can't stand it any more.
"Kerry McCarthy may be a career woman with a fair share of personal oddments, but is she dangerous." - Timbone.
If the Rt.Hon.flirt can get the likes of Dave Atherton to spout on about heroin addicts, I would say that a small eye should be kept on her. How did the conversation develop from smoking into addictions and then so quickly into necessity for provision of methodone clinics? [Dave A: Please don't answer that - purely rhetorical!] Quotes can so easily be twisted and lifted out of context.
Flattery from an attractive intelligent woman is a powerful weapon. Never forget which side she is on.
"all the wimmin and their screaming childrun, and their rules and regulations about almost everything ....I just can't stand it any more."
Idlex, neither can I, actually.
Kerry McCarthy
Thought I shouldn't knock that which I know little about - so had a look at her website and her blog. I can see the attraction, Dave & Timbone. One can write at length and in depth about almost anything. Could also see that a sizeable staff would have to be employed to cover every part of the website.
However, I wondered what the purpose of it really is, apart from advocating Veganism to save the earth from Climate Change via methane gas from cows. So I looked a bit further...
www.theyworkforyou.com/mp/?m=1455 - 28k -
Yes! For 2006/7 she ranked joint 60th out of 645 MPs for Staffing Allowance [£90,611]; joint 65th for stationery [£2,450]; joint 72nd for Computer Equipment [£1,240]; 113th for Incidental Expenses [£24,325] - I could go on.
Her total expenses were £155,487 - a staggering ranking of 45th out of 645 MPs.
So enjoy the blog, lads. We are certainly paying for it. A very clever woman indeed.
Flattery from an attractive intelligent woman is a powerful weapon. Never forget which side she is on. - Margot Johnson
Kerry McCarthy is attractive? And intelligent? I don't think she's either of those. Not that I think she's ugly or stupid. I can imagine her being quite charming in a girly sort of way. And she can prattle on about everything and anything. I can't think of an attractive and intelligent woman in politics. Nor a man for that matter.
But then, some people found Margaret Thatcher attractive. No doubt there are people who keep pin-ups of Harriet Harman and Hazel Blears. It takes all sorts.
Interesting that she's got her snout well in the trough. MPs seem to be getting rather rattled by the expenses business, judging by Eric Pickles' defensive performance on Question Time last night.
"MPs seem to be getting rather rattled by the expenses business, judging by Eric Pickles' defensive performance on Question Time last night." - idlex.
And what a fatuous vacuous contrived programme that was! Usually is.
Funny you should say that about Kerry, I don’t like that type of face at all – just trying to see it from a man’s point of view. I see that she has just joined YET ANOTHER children’s charity. I wonder how many there are now. This is from the list of her declared interests:-
"Register of Members' Interests
6. Overseas visits
17-22 March 2008, to India, to visit education projects with the Global Campaign for Education/World Vision. Travel, accommodation and subsistence paid for by World Vision. (Registered 25 April 2008)
5-8 April 2008, to Norway/Svalbard, to learn about the politics and economics of the High North, including energy policy and the impact of climate change. Travel, accommodation and other expenses paid by the Norwegian Embassy. (Registered 25 April 2008)
25-29 May 2008, to Bangladesh, to visit TB, microfinance and education programmes with the charity Results UK, who met the costs of travel, accommodation and food. (Registered 9 June 2008)."
Add to that she voted very strongly for the smoking ban, very strongly for ID Cards and voted for laws to stop climate change. She voted against a transparent Parliament and very strongly against an investigation into the Iraq war.
And they say she isn’t dangerous.
Well, I won’t waste any more of my day on her. There are many more like her.
Margot Kerry's blog is not a cosy corner where she flutters her eye lashes and we are putty in her hands. On the G20 Summit smoking room she used every other word to describe me except liar. We have exchanged private emails and I get the impression I am tolerated at best and never once has she conceded one iota to me on the smoking ban or any other matter I have an opinion on.
Saying that I was introduced to someone who has worked with her extensively at the House Of Commons and without any spin in the way I phrased the question was extremely complementary about her. Sincere, nice and hardworking were the adjectives used. She also seems to be sensitive to criticism.
I must say I have a begrudging repect for her.
Kerry Mc - I can't agree with you there. I haven't exchanged correspondecne with her though, so I suppose I'm not really well-positioned to comment.
From her blog however, it appears that she has her principles and doesn't give an 'iota' about anyone who doesn't agree with her.
She plays on words, that's all. She cannot see beyond her own little world.
I have no respect for her.
I have no respect for any MP who is brainwashed by propaganda (awash with heavily-vested interest) and isn't even prepared to debate (or even listen to) the real issues and what's actually going on.
I have no respect for any MP that ignores the needs of 22% - 25% (over 30% in some areas) of their adult constituents and blatantly agrees to denormalise them for no apparent reason.
She's just another woman, trying to make a living out of what she thinks is right. I wonder how long she'll last?
I don't think many on this blog think that she's right at the moment. If she wants to continue making a living in the world that she's accustomed to, she'd better start getting used to the word 'choice'.
Dave A:
I'm sure that Kerry is well liked and admired by her colleagues. I'm sure she is hardworking. I'm sure she is admired for sticking to her principles. I'm sure her principle that rearing animals for food and therefore polluting the planet, is regarded just as her own personal little foible. Her hatred of smoking is shared by many. I'm sure she is popular with her constituents and her blog, now contributed to by intelligent people like yourself, will help raise her prestige even more. If one looks at her record and the world control organisations she belongs to, she is destined to modestly and energetically rise high in the ranks of politics.
She is, nevertheless, a zealot. "A lady not for turning". She is probably already a favourite of the EU Commission inner circle.
Can you imagine what she would be like as Prime Minister if the EU retain their present stranglehold upon us? Can you imagine a world where the cultivation and eating of meat is forbidden by law.
Can you imagine a world where smoking is forbidden in enclosed public spaces?
On the way up Hitler was the same. He had great charisma, was hardworking, dedicated, and liked by all who knew him. His 1st World War effort was outstanding. He spent it on the Western front; was twice wounded and hospitalised and was gassed. Each time he insisted on returning to the front to join the the thick of it once more. He only rose to the rank of Corporal, it was only four years, but was awarded the Iron Cross with distinction - their highest honour.
While living in Singapore in the 60's I became good friends with a German girl. She shamefacedly admitted she had been a member of the Hitler Youth. She said they all were. She told me that Hitler was passionately loved and admired by everyone as their saviour. He had enormous charm and charisma. In the early days, they only saw what they were meant to see and only told what they were meant to know.
Isnt it just awful that the very people like Kerry McCarthy and Tony Blair with all their charisma, force of character and likeability are the very dangerous ones that the people are hoodwinked by and drawn to and inclined to follow.
Its just frightening to realise where we are heading with characters like this at the helm.
It makes one realise, more than ever, how desperately we need good investigative journalism to keep tabs on these wrong thinking zealots.
Otherwise we are all heading for the slippery slope into Hitlerism, or worse - EUism.
I take your point about megaphone politics with each standing on either side of a hill shouting at each other. No surrender, no compromise. Of course Kerry is a career politician who does not give a fig about me. I am just an unexpected irritation that takes up valueable time. However I have had a glimpse of a different side to her and she does have friends who smoke, and she is anti smoking rather than anti smoker.
When it comes to the Labour Party on the smoking ban and my intense dislike of them, revenge really will a dish best served cold, antartic cold, with a liberal dose of sauce, schadenfreude, followed by a large glass of port and a fat roll up.