Smoking to be outlawed outside hospitals?
Thursday, November 5, 2009 BBC Wales is reporting that smoking could be banned in hospital grounds in Wales. Health minister Edwina Hart described the level of smoking she saw at one maternity unit as "quite amazing". She is now considering an amendment to the legislation that would ban it.
What is it with today's politicians? It's so easy to ban something instead of looking at the underlying factors. Perhaps Hart and her colleagues should ask themselves why so many people, including young mothers, continue to smoke? After all, research suggests that if you tackle poor housing, poor education and reduce unemployment, smoking rates fall.
Then again, many people from all backgrounds enjoy the habit and have no intention of quitting. Alternatively, whether they are patients, visitors or staff, they find hospitals a stressful environment.
But no. Politicians only have eyes for the easy, headline-grabbing option. Ban it, they say, and we'll enforce the ban with tough penalties for those who dare to light up (even in the open air!).
Hart also supports a ban on tobacco vending machines which she describes as "just another natural step".
Full story, including quotes from me on this and the threat to tobacco vending machines, HERE.
Simon Clark
I was invited to appear on the BBC Radio Wales lunchtime phone-in to discuss this issue but I have just had a call to say they no longer need me. I don't mind. My replacement, who apparently shares my views, is a GP, Dr Peter Saul of Wrexham. Good for him.
Reader Comments (37)
Edwina Hart, eh ?
Just done a quick Google Image search, and I really feel I ought to protest.
It's DESPERATELY unfair that the Health Lobby should use such ravishing beauties to advance their agenda.
Why can't they use someone UGLY for a change ?
I call it 'aesthetic blackmail'.
Clearly, the Welsh are not a cricket-playing nation..............
No disrespect to you, Simon, but a GP's views will probably carry more weight on this issue.
Incidentally, I was recently speaking to someone who is completing a nursing degree who said that hospitals are beginning to reverse their policy of banning smoking on-site because it sends out the wrong message - the public feels that it suggests that patient care is being sacrificed on the altar of healthism.
Belinda (in a freedom2choose front page article) highlighted a letter from a doctor who suggested that smoking rooms should be re-instated although goodness knows how you get round the workplace issue (in the absence of common sense (which emigrated some time ago)).
Please don't use one of the anti's favourtite words - HABIT. This always suggests doing something that requires no independent thought.
To the vast majority of smokers...smoking a cigarette, cigar or pipe is a pleasurable pastime - and not a habit!
Simon asks "What is it with today's politicians? It's so easy to ban something instead of looking at the underlying factors. ..."
Rather more profitable to be sowing seeds of social division and disharmony which can thereafter be exploited once their latest phony and expensive "solution" has created yet another set of entirely-forseeable "unintended" consequences for them to tackle.
Whoaaa, !
I thought Jabba the hut was a male character !
Ban!! The most childish word of the 21st Century.Definition.. 'A Frequently used word favoured by immature brain dead people in a position of power to exert authority over others'.
Use of common sense grey cells are not required as they have not got any.
While we are on the subject of brain dead.. anybody heard about Cameron changing mind on a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty ? While He has. Do you really think that guy is going to make any ammendments to the smoking ban?
@Peter James - I think it's now debatable that he'd be allowed to. From 1st January 2010 we will be living in a dictatorship in all but name.
Peter -
Good definition !
As to:
"Cameron changing mind............"
When did he ever HAVE one to change ?
He seems to have spent the better part of his leadership going round the Ideas Supermarket with his trolley, selecting only those items he believes he can re-sell with the minimum of fuss.
Principle seems to play no part in the process.
Joyce is right: we ARE moving toward a dictatorship - and have been for a LONG time - but New Style (one that 'cares' - for now).
Irritating, isn't it, that those of us who DO value our freedoms have to see them eroded in part as a result of the Apathy of the Majority ?
"Never in the field of human conflict was so much thrown away by so many at the insigation of a few.............." (you might say).
When I think what the young men who merited the proper version of that phrase sacrificed, I feel nothing but shame.
We have squandered the rewards of their sacrifice.
It seems that politicians in particular, and people in general, have lost the feeling for what Ruskin described as 'noble anger'.
If only they knew the trouble we're REALLY in...........
So Edwina says banning vending machines is the right way to go.
I hope Edwina's limited brain power has the capacity to think this through and that she has 'taken the relevant steps' and put 'measures in place' to compensate the thousands of poor buggers who lashed out 80,000 for their vending machines, and that she has calculated the cost per annum of keeping these people on the dole.
Seemingly, promoting economic growth in the height of a recession, does not come into her equation if the word 'smoke' comes into it.
The balance isnt right here, where is all the money coming from to compensate for putting thousands of people out of work in relation to smoking in these desperate times.
And now with Cameron 'changing his mind' on the referendum, all I can say is that the EU dictatorship must have a bottomless pit of money to oil the wheels for their insidious take over.
Joyce, I take your point. So now we have to go cap in hand to Brussels. Great!! Haven't our politicians done a wonderful job. My, we should have had them in 1939.
In the Kingdom of the blind, the one eyed man is King. That is the old saying, and by the look of things, many people on here seem to agree with that, for they are following blindly, our one eyed leader, Mr Brown, and bowing to everything he tells them.
For ages, these same people have been moaning and groaning about all the lies and hypocrisy that has been fed to us by our one eyed leader, regarding the smoking ban. This same Labour Party, the very same one who voted the smoking ban into British law, then promised us, the British people, in their election manifesto, that they would give us a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty, or whichever name they were calling this document at that time.
As we all know, Brown and his party got back into power, and not only did they continue to ignore the plight of the poor smokers, but they also reneged on their manifesto pledge to give us a referendum on Europe. Not needed, they said, for the treaty was not the same one they were talking about, it was completely different, they lied!
And so, here we are, with this damn treaty stuffed down our throats in the most unconstitutional way, without the people of this country being allowed the vote we were promised on it, by our Labour leaders, and who is to blame for all this? Why good ol' David Cameron of course, who has been stitched up like the proverbial kipper by our so called European partners.
The Treaty has been passed (unconstitutionally) into European law, and without puling out completely, there is nothing we can do about it. But don't blame the man that signed that piece of paper on our behalf, without bothering to consult us over it, oh no, that would be like blaming dear old Labour for the smoking ban wouldn't it. Dave's an easy target, let's blame him! Do me a favour!
Peter T.
On your firery horse again..No one is blaming DC. What i am stating is that he made a promise and I quote ... 'A cast Iron promise that the people of Briatin will have a vote on the Lisbon Treaty'. Now he has u-turned on that.
So if those are His cast iron promisies what are the others going to be like ?
Peter Thurgood - your great hero, David Cameron, has kept his mouth tightly closed over the past years regarding a variety of issues - mass immigration being one of them and he has never ever indicated any amendment of the blanket smoking ban. Additionally, he has attacked the old grammar school system (in 2007, I believe) which was the last straw for me and I resigned my membership of the Conservative Party.
I, for one, blame David Cameron as much as I blame Brown, Blair, Straw and every single one of those dictatorial numpties who have sold this country down the river. Cameron could have spoken out a long time ago and attempted to do something - but he chose not to do so.
As far as Cameron is concerned and, Brown, Blair,the Lib Dems and all those who have enabled our liberties to be taken away from us, where is Guy Fawkes (or someone with similar bottle) when we damn well need him/her? Surely someone has got to come forward and lead us all out of this awful mess.
You know as well as I, and everyone else come to that, that when Cameron made that promise, there were several countries still not signed up to the dreadful document, and Ireland had already voted a big NO to it. Cameron's promise was based upon the treaty as he saw it then, and as we all saw it.
Who would have thought that the Irish would have buckled under threats, and Poland, and then the Czech Republic? These people were seen as our friends, and they too promised their respective nations that they would not sign. But when the last one fell a few days ago, and the treaty became law, you cannot have a referendum on something which has already been passed into law. It is like us having a referendum on hanging, all it would do is show how the people of this country felt about it, but it definitely would not change the law!
The person who could have changed the whole thing, was Gordon Brown. His party promised us a referendum before the treaty was signed, and they reneged on it, hook line and sinker. They lied in order to get into government, and then gave the British people a two fingered salute!
David Cameron, Jenny, is not my "great hero". I would have personally liked him to have been much more forceful regarding Europe, a long time ago, but maybe he, like us, was taken in by Brown's promisees, and as such, didn't think much was needed to be done, as the promised Brown referendum was definitely on the cards then?
I also think that we would be far better off out of Europe completely, which is something else that I disagree with Cameron about.
And I would absolutely love it if he said he would even "look" at the smoking ban, but he hasn't said that has he, and by the look of things, he doesn't intend to, not at this moment in time anyway.
The reason I stand up for the Conservatives, is not as you put it, Jenny, out of hero worship, that is being silly. I stand up for the Conservatives because I think they can, and will, do better for our country as a whole, than any of the other parties.
The purpose of an opposition party (and I voted Conservative in the General Election of 2005) is to oppose - quite simply that. I have not witnessed much, if any, opposition during the past four plus years by Cameron and his new conservatives to what has been happening, is happening now and what will happen. I agree with you, Peter Thurgood, about Brown and New Labour. I also understand your comments about the other EU countries. It came as no surprise to me, however, when the Irish voted yes, recently, because they have been brought to their knees financially.
I was one of the thousands of people who made their way to London on 27th February 2008, queued for hours outside Parliament to lobby my MP and was part of the "I Want A Referendum" campaign that day. A simultaneous protest (some students who miraculously had access to the roof of the Houses of Parliament - and what a coincidence) protesting about an airport terminal was focused upon and given news coverage. We were ignored. I can't recall any of the 'opposition' that day really taking us seriously. The people have not been listened to by all the mainstream parties and that is why we are in the mess we are in today.
Will Cameron lead us out of all this? My guess is a resounding NO.
Peter Thurgood - perhaps I do come across as being 'silly' sometimes. I know that I have been described as 'odd', 'eccentric' and individualistic. However, I hope that your last statement in your post of 13.23 proves to be correct. If it is not correct, then the balloon will go up.
The question remains then, was the Irish, Czech and Polish Yes vote a done deal between the various govts and Brussels last year, which I have to believe it was, when you see the threats and payoffs that were done.
In that case why didnt Cameron come out and say that subject to all countries ratifying, he would not be able to hold the referendum.
It would have justified his lack of balls at the very least and let him off the hook to a degree.
Maybe when he looked to his masters for example he realized he just doesent have to, as we're all only numbers now to be manipulated for purpose.
England is very lucky that they have an alternative in UKIP and BNP.
Jenny, I do apologise for using the word "silly" against you. It was very rude of me!
Jenny _
Re:
"Additionally, he has attacked the old grammar school system (in 2007, I believe) which was the last straw for me and I resigned my membership of the Conservative Party."
Bravo to YOU !
As an ex-Grammar School Boy myself, I have nothing but GRATITUDE to the Old Labour Party that put the system in place which allowed me the PRIVILEGE of a first class education.
No - I never regarded it as my 'right'.
In what crappy comprehensive today would I be able to learn Greek, Latin, and Ancient History at 'A' Level ?
Not 'relevant', you see (whatever THAT means).
And I have nothing but CONTEMPT for those privately-educated Tories (such as You Know Who) who have connived at NuLabour's slamming the door in the face of countless numbers of children from poor backgounds (or with thick, indifferent parents of ALL classes) who will now no longer have the chance to 'raise themselves' from the slough of mediocrity and poverty via the education system.
The latter must now learn to Know Their Place (and learn what little they can at Waterloo Road).
How 'caring' of the Socialists (and their pale-blue colleagues on the benches opposite).
Being able to pay £15,000 for a 'degree' in Traffic Warden Studies from some fifth-rate 'university' is scarcely any compensation.
All very 'New World Order', though.
For those with Eyes To See..............
PS:
'Silly' you DEFINITELY ain't...............
I accept your apology, Peter. I have had far worse words used against me in the past and in more recent times.
I simply feel that there is some kind of horrible spiral downwards at present. The smoking ban and all the spiteful, arrogant behaviour of people is all part of this. There is some horrible, general oppressive force which is dragging us all down.
The European issue has been in the 'pending' tray for a long time, then suddenly it has been picked out and 'sorted'. Shock, bump, crash - people are now beginning to wake up and realise that this has happened and it appears to be too late. Cameron most likely could not have stopped all this - it was inevitable - but he could have spoken out.
The BNP and UKIP will now gather up a lot more votes. I feel there could be a hung parliament and even two elections next year.
here is something from the Guardian, of all papers, which might help to explain more about Cameron and the treaty etc..
You say Jenny, "The BNP and UKIP will now gather up a lot more votes. I feel there could be a hung parliament and even two elections next year"
This is exactly what I have been saying on here for months,when everyone else was saying a Tory victory is a forgone conclusion. I sincerely hope so, but I more in doubt of it every day!
Martin V - thanks for your kind words - loved Latin, but never learned Greek. Need another thread for NWO - but I see your point clearly. Very clearly.
Peter - I think there's been another 'stage management' attempt. Remember I told the story about being in London and the students were on the roof? That was another example of deliberate stage management and manipulation. Well, we all know we have to have a general election before 6th June 2010 and New Labour have held on as long as possible in spite of expenses scandals and all sorts of things. This has all been deliberately timed to coincide with the rising popularity of the conservatives. Also, by allowing Nick Griffin airspace on Question Time - this was another 'stage management' example. The BNP should have been allowed a voice ages ago, regardless of what people believe because it is a legitimate party. We have the Question Time fiasco closely followed by Lisbon and this, therefore, stirs everyone up. So the outcome is that there is political fragmentation. Another example of the 'divide and rule' principle. This process will continue.
Peter T -
Once again (and I can positively FEEL your sense of exasperation pulsing over the Net) you set up an Aunty Sally ('Cameron is to blame'), only for you to take a swipe at.
But Cameron IS the Face of whatever shadowy cabal constitutes the current leadership of the Party.
I once reflexively voted 'Conservative', too - until I began (for my sins) studying European Law at Universty. That was a Damascene moment for me, since I then realised - for the first time - that the Mindset that IS 'Europe' is WHOLLY alien to what we regard as 'ours'. Even a brief comparison of our two legal systems is sufficient to illustrate the point.
Yet it was the Tories (under Cottager Heath) who persuaded us that membership was 'inevitable' as well as desirable.
They were WRONG on BOTH counts. Were the Leadership to reflect the highy intelligent views of the Hannans and the Carswells of this world, we'd have a Party that people could once again feel some 'connection' with, and which they could support with something approaching ENTHUSIASM.
But we just seem to be headed on the same perilous journey that Hayek (and others) warned about all those years ago: on the Road to Serfdom.
You mustn't be surpised if you hear the occasional cry of 'Help, us !' coming from the newly-disenfranchised Lovers of Liberty and Country.
Our Nation has been imperilled before, of course:
The Armada.
Trafalgar.
The Battle of Britain.
It may be unfair for some of us to thrust the mantle of an Elizabeth, a Pitt, or a Churchill towards Cameron, and demand that he wear it.
But SOMEONE has to - sooner or later.
And how many MORE Thermopylaes CAN we expect to survive ?
Pregnant smokers are easy targets to bully. It is as simple as that. I read today that a report "hints" that smoking when pregnant can make children badly behaved. Is a "hint" now taken as "evidence"?
As a mother who smoked throughout all of my pregnancies, I can testify that I have not had one stupid child, one sick child, one underweight child, in fact none of the myths associated with smoking and pregnancy have proved to be fact in all of my experience as a pregnant smoker not any other pregnant smoker I've met.
That is why so many pregnant women smoke - THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH IT but it stinks that women at one of the most vulnearble times of their lives are mistreated and villified in this way because they enjoy a legal product that some other people don't like.
Peter (T) - I can't see how any of Cameron's pledges on Europe can be met. There can be no future referendums (to stop even more power being removed from the UK) because there will be no more treaties: the Lisbon Treaty is self-amending which I understand to mean that the EU can now assume any powers it wants without reference to anyone. As for repartriating some of the powers already ceded, well, that's a non-starter (like signing the contract and afterwards trying to re-negotiate some of the clauses). The only courses now open are to stay in or get out (and, why, exactly does there need to be a two year exit period?).
I'm not sure exactly what the function of Westminster will be from Jan 2010 - perhaps no more than discussion of how best to implement EU policy. I don't think it will matter a jot whether Conservative or Labour is the next 'governing' party - you might as well pick the candidate with the nicer tie. Brown wouldn't give us the promised referendum on the Treaty and the only viable promise that Cameron could have made in the past couple of days is a referendum on whether to leave the EU altogether which he has failed to do.
Joyce
I agree with you to a large extent.
The only referendum that would have any import would be the in or out type but don't forget that we will be paying £7.8 bn to belong to this club - that's a lot of clout (assuming that we are prepared to leave the club if we can't get satisfaction and that they know this). That's money that Brussels won't want to lose.
As to Cameron, what else could the bloke do given the stitch up by Blair/Brown/Clegg? He only said there would be a referendum if the treaty wasn't ratified. At least he's made a start in defining a much more eurosceptic stance for an incoming tory government.
But the real problem will be bankrupt Britain, not the EU. With our debt racking up at £20 million per hour (and that's before the latest £25bn tranche of QE) the EU will be a side issue that can be dealt with in due course. That's why he's just kicked the issue into the long grass for now. Hopefully the wretched thing will have started to break up by then or at least show signs of so doing. History shows that such artificial structures never succeed and there is a growing eurosceptic movement in other countries, witness thousand of German people demonstrating the other week.
As for voting UKIP, yes my heart would feel better but my head would be worrying about a hung parliamemt or, worse, more Labour. No one deserves that.
Good stuff, Goodstuff, I couldn't have put it better myself.
Goodstuff-
Yes, I've wondered if it would all collapse if 'eurosceptics' from the 27 member states got together and refused to accept it(how ironic would that be)!!
We've already been paying billions a year and I'm no wiser what we've had in return except punitive directives. Has anyone done the sums that show that we receive, in economic terms, a nett profit from the EU? If we spent that £7bn a year in some other way could we return a greater profit? I never hear discussion about this in the MSM.
When have the British people been allowed a full and frank discussion of membership of the EU - no spin, no lying by omission? (We haven't had such discussion (about anything) for a long time. It's as if our politicians have decided that the rationale behind decision-making is none of our business.) We've never been allowed such discussion about the EU because it's not in the political interests of any of the mainstream parties to enlighten the electorate about its nature and power. With the Treaty fully ratified, there's now no point in such a discussion unless it's part of the issue of whether to stay in or get out.
Cameron was stitched up by Brown but, as Jenny has said, above, he's hardly offered robust opposition. He's prevaricated when challenged about policy in the face of a fully ratified Treaty and is now making empty pledges. He's either, as you suggest, stalling for time or he's fobbing off the electorate. I'm less inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt partly because I don't believe he wants out of the EU and partly because the economy will take so long to sort out that the EU will never become the main issue. I think he's hoping that people will just get used to it! And, you know, unless the EU moves too fast, they probably will until no-one is alive who knows what a life lived without oppression was like.
Katabasis in a comment on Devil's Kitchen (Pedantry on Cameron) quotes the relevant clauses in the Treaty to show that Cameron's pledges aren't feasible.
We would even need permission to leave the EU - that tells you everything you need to know.
WRT smoking there is no reason to suppose that the EU will not demand that all member nations implement the kind of ban we have in the UK and if it chooses in the future to ban smoking in public altogether, in the home and decides that receipt of state benefits is dependant on being a non-smoker, then will anyone be able to do a damn thing about it? The EU is a gift to the tobacco control lobby since they no longer have to deal with different governments.
Joyce
An interesting comment from Katabasis. The key seems to lie with ECA1972.
But Cameron may have taken this on board - see
http://partyreptile.blogspot.com/2009/11/mr-e-and-factortame.html
In essence this argues that if a British government chose to introduce legislation contrary to EU rules then it would stand. If this interpretation is correct the question then moves on to whether Cameron may have this in the back of his mind as a longstop position?
Edwina Hart should loose a lot of weight, then she may be in the position to lecture others on what's healthy. At present, she's no role model and was probably blocking the door to the maternity unit with her ungainly bulk.
This is a woman who likes her own way and enjoys making others feel that she can terrorise them. She is hardly the most charismatic figure in Welsh politics and despite her alleged intelligence betrays herself to be remarkably stupid sometimes, just as with this idea relating to hospitals. Twll din Edwina!
Quite clearly the welsh assembly haven't learned the lessons of the last elections. That was when NuLabour lost overall control of Councils. The next step on the cards is a Labour Free Country. Perhaps, Muppets like Ms Hart might understand her foolish ways - like the reason for Remembrance Sunday.
A UKIP vote will beat the BNP. A UKIP vote shows this issue matters. Those of you too afraid to change your voting habits will get what you ask for - the criminalisation of smokers within five years. Next May is the only time you will have some control and can make your voice heard on this issue. The cons won't listen after five or even 10 years of this economically damaging and divisive law in place.
Obviously as a UKIP supporter, I would say that. But I am a new UKIP supporter and I have thought carefully about why I have switched my support. I want change. This issue matters and UKIP is the ONLY party that recognises that. I am really disappointed that some smokers will trust the Tories when the persecution of smokers will continue under Camoron.
You've given up the fight already so why bother moaning about the ban?
Finally, a hung parliament is preferable to the Lib/Lab/Con alliance. It matters not whether Lab or Cons get in either because both are exactly the same.
Here, here, Pat, I wouldnt trust the main parties any more after the way they have behaved for the past 10years, they're all the same.
Instead of concentrating on the economy, the job we pay them to do, they choose to diversify into people's personal lives and take away our civil liberties just to make themselves popular and look as if they were doing great things, while in the background the economy was going belly up.
The time for talking, demos and debate are over, they just aint listening.
Voting for a fringe party is just the medicine they need to give them a sharp shock that lets them know people have had enough.
What the hell if it is a hung
parliament, we're used to confusion aplenty at this stage anyway.
Its a lucky thing that there are fringe parties to vote for.
Interesting that Tom Wise from UKIP has been sent down for two years for fiddling his expenses. Wonder if we'll find Lab/Con/Lib Dem offenders similarly dealt with... or just UKIP....