Philip Davies: "Very sad day for the House"
Tuesday, October 13, 2009 Further to my previous post I can reveal that the following MPs attended the NFRN briefing in the House of Commons hosted by Philip Davies MP (left). The meeting took place prior to the final debate and vote on the Government's Health Bill in the House of Commons yesterday.
Philip Davies (Conservative)
Mike Penning (Conservative shadow health minister)
Kate Hoey (Labour)
Steven Ladyman (Labour)
Gordon Prentice (Labour)
Lembit Opik (Lib Dem)
John Leach (Lib Dem)
The briefing coincided with the arrival of 50-60 newsagents to lobby their MPs but despite this a Conservative amendment tabled by Mike Penning to remove the tobacco display ban was defeated by 288 votes to 180.
Worse, the Bill now includes a last minute amendment by former Labour minister Ian McCartney to ban cigarette vending machines as well. (The Government - surprise, surprise - immediately announced that it won't oppose this amendment when the Bill goes through the House of Lords.)
The only comfort we can take is the withdrawal of a Lib Dem amendment to discuss restrictions on tobacco packaging (ie plain packaging).
The amended Bill will now be sent to the House of Lords for debate and final approval before being enacted (timeline to be confirmed).
PS. I have just been interviewed by Nick Ferrari on LBC. I quoted Philip Davies, speaking in the House last night: "This is a very sad day for the House, which once again shows that the Government are one of the most intolerant, authoritarian and illiberal Governments that we have ever seen."
The full quote reads:
I want to say that this is a very sad day for the House, which once again shows that the Government are one of the most intolerant, authoritarian and illiberal Governments that we have ever seen. It is yet another triumph for the nanny state. It will not make any difference at all to smoking rates. Cigarettes are not an impulse purchase. As someone who worked in retail for many years before coming to the House, I can assure people that they are not an impulse purchase like cream cakes. People walk past cream cakes, think that they look nice, and decide to buy them, but they do not buy cigarettes on the same premise.
This is just another authoritarian victory for a Government who want to thrash around looking as if they have done something. It will have a devastating effect on many, many small retailers, small newsagents and pubs. I hope that we will not see crocodile tears from Ministers when many more small shops and pubs go to the wall as a result of the Government’s policies.
Update: I have also been interviewed by Sky News Radio who provide news bulletins for many local radio stations. Again, I made a point of quoting Philip Davies who has been a good friend of Forest for several years and has spoken at several of our events, including a press conference at the House of Commons to oppose the smoking ban.
Simon Clark
Reuters has the story about vending machines HERE. Forest's response is on page 2.
Reader Comments (32)
Apologies for posting this twice (I already posted on the earlier subject below) .
So, it looks like it is going to happen then?
The House of Lords will now consider whether there should be an outright ban on cigarette vending machines, after an amendment to the Health Bill by Labour's Ian McCartney was passed by the Commons on Monday night.
Good old Labour, who the vast majority on here, are willing to let slip back into power again, have voted to bar the display of cigarettes in shops, despite strong opposition to the Government's proposals from the Tories.
The Tories expressed concern over proposals for a ban on the display of cigarettes, particularly during the recession when shops could suffer from a lack of business.
Surely this is not the same Tories that seem to be the major enemy of the smoking community on here? Never mind, let's just close our eyes and pretend it didn't happen, like when you was a child and you hide your head under the bedclothes, in the hope that if you cannot see the monster, it will disappear.
If we all keep our eyes tightly closed and wish and wish, you never know, good ol' Ukip-man might appear, and save the day?
That word "IF", it's the biggest little word in the world isn't it.
I must say I do feel sorry for the retailers because unlike the vast majority of publicans they did try and put up a fight. Many will go out of business and the major supermarkets will benefit as smokers buy their fags with their weekly shop.
Smuggling and counterfeiting will surge because the local retailers will close and the gap will be filled by criminals selling cigarettes out of suitcases on street corners or door to door. Newspaper sales will collapse with the loss of the local shops and many famous Fleet Street names will go.
This will further erode village life since the small local retailers are already struggling. Post Offices have gone, pubs are shutting down and now the shops will go.
Given the importance of this issue I am disgusted that nearly 180 MPs did not even bother to vote whether they agreed with the bill or not. I would be interested in seeing the figures for the MPs who could not be bothered to get off their fat, pampered a***s just as much as those who voted.
Cameron may pay lip service to opposing this but he didn't even bother voting on it. See who did:
http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200809/cmhansrd/cm091012/debtext/91012-0018.htm
We never hear aything about repealing any of this sort of legislation from the Tories apart from vague statements about "Big Government". I don't think they'll do much about any of it should they gain power. Look at the way they behave at Local Government level to get an idea of what to expect. Spy cars, abuse of the RIPA laws, alcohol bans, all the usual things one has come to expect. Cameron could have told Local Councils to tone it down but he hasn't which makes the future look ominous.
Perhaps if the disgraceful behaviour continues at Westminster we could see all three main parties being kicked out but it's a bit of a long shot. Imagine if they were, it would feel like being let out of prison the day after the election. I urge everyone I meet not to vote for any of them, most people seem to think that's a good idea. We could do with some sort of national campaign to stop all three of them.
Simon, I totally agree that all 3 main parties need stopping in their tracks. They are far too arrogant and believe themselves 'bullet proof', it seems, so it is more than time that they had a massive shake up!
I too urge people not to vote for any of the major 3, but in the vague hope that whichever one does get in, all their votes will have been badly eroded by other parties and just might give them the kick up the bum that they badly need. None, so far as I can see, give a fig about anyone in this country and that just cannot go on!
Needless to say, I am furious, but not surprised!
They just do not seem to have anything else to do but pass petty vindictive laws.
Muppetts.
OK so it's on to the alchohol ban now then.
Thieves like that lemon sucking cow Arnott need to hang on to their 80,0000 + slaries do they not.
The crazy thing is they cannot have regarded the facts from abroad showing how disasterous these measures are.
Take Totalitarean Canada for example,,they did this years ago now .
The result no decrease in smoking, small businessess hit hard and the cherry on the cake ?
It is estimated roughly half of all tobacco purchased in Canada is now contraband.
What fools !
The sooner Zanulabours incompetent cohorts are booted out the better.
They really do not have a clue unless it is to do with theiving, wasting, and stealing other peoples money.
But I suppose it will increase the supply of smuggled ,cheaper cigarettes so that's a bonus.
Its the small retailers who will suffer just like the Public houses did.
Thousends of them probably .
That's the real shame, still Lemon sucking cow Arnott keeps her parasitic job.
Along with the rest of thieves .
For now.
Let's face it, it was not a case of whether it went through or not. We all knew what was going to happen, we were like specatators at the Amphitheatre.
Interesting point about the amendment being dropped to do with plain packaging. If there was not some potential publicity which could not be avoided I am sure it would have gone through as well.
This is one area where the tobacco industry are making threats. Is this because there are some trading standards laws which the government could be fought with. Money and court cases are the last thing this government wants to deal with, especially when they know that they would be beaten and humiliated.
I have a strange feeling that this government will be looking to change or add clauses to trading legislation, so that they can order manufacturers to stop using colours and attractive fonts.
Lyn,
Imagine the morning after an election if we awoke to find we had elected an assortment of UKIP, Greens, BNP, Independents etc. What a marvellous feeling it would be. A true cross section of the people with no party holding a majority and the three main authoritarian parties banished to the peripheries. It would be like when a bullying Headmaster is sacked after going too far and the cloud of opression finally lifts.
All the main services in this country are pretty well self sufficient and schools, hospitals etc would just carry on as usual so there wouldn't be any real downside. When you think of it we don't need all this meddling and interference which is about all the corrupt politicians get up to apart from their main occupation of lining their own pockets. I shall redouble my efforts to get people not to vote for any of the main three. You never know, the idea might catch on.
"All the main services in this country are pretty well self sufficient and schools, hospitals etc would just carry on as usual"
Oh God, I despair sometimes, I really do!
Why do you despair, Peter? Do you think these things would cease to function if we removed the influence of a bunch of corrupt, thieving politicians?
Should anyone be in any doubt, can I make it clear that I am not the "Simon" who has commented above.
Simon writes: "Imagine the morning after an election if we awoke to find we had elected an assortment of UKIP, Greens, BNP, Independents etc. What a marvellous feeling it would be."
What Simon has just described is my vision of hell (especially the reference to the BNP).
BTW, if anyone called Simon wishes to comment on this blog in future, could you please use your full name or a different name to avoid any confusion.
I certainly didn't think it was you, Simon Clark, for one minute!
I agree with Simon (not Clark!). Peter - Yes, it would be unfortunate if the hated Lab govt got in because we all voted with our conscience and in line with our views rather than talioring them to suit whatever party leader wants to be PM next.
Our votes may make no difference in terms of getting the party we want in power, but it will, finally, hopefully, break the awful three party system-all-the-same-whatever-the-colour dictatorship we have now. What is our choice now? Put up and shut up!
If the 3 main parties - including the front runners, The Tories - want out vote, they have to start showing us they have a brain of their own, an ideology of their own, and they are not sheeples doing what they think the public wants but clearly have no idea.
As for the tobacco display ban, etc, etc, etc... Of course it was going to happen because we have no choice. We will have no choice when smoking is made illegal either ... and I have no doubt that at some point in the future, it will - unless we vote differently and begin to effect real and worthwhile change for the electorate. Think of the chiiiiildren. We have no choice but we can begin to set in motion a change in voting that could well leave them with a legacy of freedom in future which currently, because of us, they will be denied.
While the smoking ban and the attacks on smokers have gone way too far, they will not influence who governs at the next election.It will certainly lead to some smokers protesting with their vote and under a proportional representation scheme some fringe parties could be elected. However, ultimately people vote according to how it affects their pockets and as Bill Clinton famously said when asked why people would vote for him replied 'It's the economy, stupid'.
The country is in a mess and people will vote for whoever they believe has the best chance of getting the economic situation turned around. When it comes down to the denormalisation of smokers all parties are guilty although some to a greater extent than others. Labour brought in these measures and while some Tories may have objected you can guarantee that amendments to the ban are way down Cameron's list.
Cameron does not care about smokers and knows he will win the next election without their vote. By all means fight for the rights of smokers but to advocate a government made up of lunatics is silly when there are more pressing issues than whether we can have a cigarette with our beers.
That was me, sorry for any confusion.
Simon, surely you must realise that you're flogging a dead horse with all the main three parties. None of them are ever going to relax either the smoking ban or any of the ever increasing number of add on restrictions. They are all going to enact ever more draconian laws, restrictions and bans.
If you don't like the BNP then UKIP is the only avenue left open as far as I can see. There are no other parties that I am aware of who will repeal the ban. Wouldn't it be better to throw in your lot with them and stop wasting time on the other parties?
There is a famous film where Mel Brooks sings a song which includes the line:
"Don't be stupid, be a smarty, come and join the Nazi party"
This is sounding more and more familiar on here recently!
I'd hardly call UKIP Nazis, but some may. The point is that if you are trying to achieve something it seems pointless to consort with those who will never concede anything to you. If UKIP is the only acceptable means of getting what you want then it seems sensible to work with them. It needs small groups such as Forest to get behind the minority parties if the three party cartel is ever to be broken.
Personally, I don't mind which of the smaller parties get into a position where they may be able to one day wield power. Once the domination of the main three (which are one really) is broken it would be relatively easy to change again. The worst case scenario is for these three parties to prevail and in cahoots with the EU deny us any realistic choice for the forseeable future.
UKIP are not Nazis and I am offended at the suggestion as a UKIP member. My mother, a wartime Italian, lived under Nazi rule and saw some appalling things. That is not UKIP but it more like the EU that UKIP wants to free Britain from.
Fascism is Labour's claim to fame. I reserve judgement on the Tories but I don't expect much.
Michael said : "...there are more pressing issues than whether we can have a cigarette with our beers." personally, for me, it is not about having a fag with my beer or my cup of tea. It is about freedom. It is THE line for me. I don't care about the other issues which, frankly, in my view, need less Govt interference and not more.
If we cannot come to a balanced view on this issue, then what next?. Schools which MUST teach certain things whether they go against our cultures and beliefs - hospitals which legally deny smokers treatment...? employers who deny smokers jobs....? That is the only way forward with tobacco control if we let go of this issue as one that doesn't matter THAT much. For all of the above reasons, The Blanket Smoking ban and tolerating an amendment matters more than anything.
It is acceptance that it is not as important as other issues that has led to us to this. If we smokers had fought harder in the early days, none of us would be on here debating this monstrous attack on personal choice and, in my own case, life culture.
I'm sure back in the days of women's rights and their fight to vote, there was some bloke somewhere who said :"Oh, darling, does it really matter that much whether women vote when we have just come out of a dreadful war that killed millions of young men and we have a failing economy to rebuild?"
As for the present economy, the blanket smoking ban is responsible in huge part for the serial murder of our pubs and clubs, the lack of sales in shops for people who don't go out anymore, and now, after the tobacco display ban, the impending loss of hundreds of small shops and the jobs that go with them. That is also what people will vote about on economy issues.
Pat
Whilst I have every sympathy with your point of view I think it is unrealistic to expect Cameron to make any noises on lessening the smoking ban in the run up to the election.
Roughly on in five people smoke so he could, in theory, end up alienating many more voters than he gains, particularly since most people haven't done any research of their own and rely solely on the state propanganda that we've been fed for years. Even most smokers perceive they're habit as an evil addiction.
It just isn't going to happen.
Pat Nurse.
"Schools which MUST teach certain things whether they go against our cultures and beliefs"
It's schools that led me to this site today. A friend's son drew a picture of a cat leaning against a wall smoking a cigar. Cool eh? The teacher didn't think so, confiscated the drawing and upbraided the boy for "glorifying smoking".
I think that illustrates your point well. Like you, I'm not bothered about the economy etc. That will sort itself out over time, eroded freedoms will not.
It reminded me of an old Harry Chapin song which surprisingly is on youtube.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xO-tEq4HP3E&feature=PlayList&p=D354A5EED8D541CF&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=27
Fair enough Goodstuff - but he won't get my vote and many others - does he really want to risk giving way to NuLab again and lose votes to "fringe parties"?
The point is, we do matter. Politicians who don't see that are not worth voting for.
I don't agree that most smokers see their habit as "an evil addiction". They just smoke and want to be left alone. Those who are isolated from this new "movement" or swell of support for this issue, tend to make those sort of noises only because it is too much to break through other people's brain washed perceptions about smoking and smokers.
No one is asking the Tories or any other party to reverse the ban. We ask a very small thing.An amendment. If that is too much for Cameron to legislate for, then God help us when true courage and committement is needed from him on issues that affect other minorities.
... oh, and, Goodstuff - I don't think that anything like one in five object to choice as long as they can also choose to go where people don't smoke.
Support for this ban is what really is the myth. Most people don't care. It is only the minority - probably one in 100 that is totally opposed to any kind of choice on this issue. The tolerant non-smokers who are losing their local pubs also favour choice.
I will be logging off in a couple of minutes and not back on again until tomorrow morning, but I would like to try to answer Pat's post before I go.
Pat, firstly I did not say that UKIP were Nazis!
Like yourself, I have Jewish blood, on my mother's side, which supposedly makes me Jewish, but that has nothing at all with the matter in hand.
My objections to certain posters on here, is that firstly, they keep talking of supporting the BNP, which I see as a quasi-Nazi party. They say that they would rather vote for them, if they say they would overturn the ban, than any of the other three parties.
My answer to statements such as this are unprintable!
The second thing I would like to bring up (no pun intended) is that of the constant Tory bashing. Why keep on asking about David Cameron and what he would do if and when he forms a new government. Why not ask the Labour Party or the Lib-Dems, or the Raving Loony Party, come to that?
The Conservatives are by no means sure of winning the forthcoming General Election, in fact the more I read about it, the less chance I see of them winning.
The other side are not as stupid as they look or seem, they are posing as friends on internet websites, but come with daggers drawn behind their backs.
The gullible are taken in by these impostors, and sensible debate is forced into a corner, just as all normal debate is now almost banned by the politically correct doctrine of our government.
I have always stood by UKIP's two policies, that of getting out of Europe and overturning the smoking ban, so please do not think I am anti-UKIP. I am anti BNP.
I am sure you are aware of who I mean
The GE cannot come soon enough - I absolutely detest New Labour with a vengence.
Today, many MPs of all persuasions have complained about having to pay back expenses (retrospectively) when the rules at the time allowed them to claim legitimately. Yes, I suppose they have a point, but quite frankly I do not give a stuff for their plight.
I thought it was grossly unfair when they remove my enjoyment of a pint and a cigarette in an enclosed space(it was called a pub in those days).
I thought is was grossly unfair when they made me legible for a fine or the sack from my company for simply smoking in my own car.
I thought it was unfair when they destroyed businesses through not allowing choice in the smoking ban laws.
Yes, under New Labour, life has become very unfair and this expenses saga is a small payback for these illiberal, totalitarian barstewards.
"I am sure you are aware of who I mean"
this was not intended to be in my last post.
Peter Thurgood<
Yes, I know you don't support the BNP,I don't either. However, I will support UKIP because the have supported an amendment to the smoking ban. I don't beleive they will get elected as even an opposition party in the next election but I also would like to see the UK exit the EU, because we had a referendum on EEC not the EU.
My and my husband are really angry about this ban (he is a non smoker), but it means that we only go to pubs in the summer when the weather is guaranteed and only then when there is a decent pub garden. Our social life now is limited to going out in the warmer months and we barely venture out together in winter. We used to go to our local every night and have a couple of drinks, Since the smoking ban we have barely been to a pub together once or twice a month and that's in the summer!
I lost my job in December 2008 and have no luck in finding another one,(about 55 aplications,so far). As I have savings, life is not too bad but as I have no employment and cannot have interaction with work colleagues anymore, and the local pub does not seem an inviting place, I am feeling increasing isolated. Is this what NuLiebore wanted, to stop people talking to each other? I think so. If you can stop people meeting in public places you can stop discussion.
I do believe the Tories and the Libdims are no different to NuLibore. I will be voting UKIP. Sadly, they will not even be in opposition and I am already making plans to leave the UK, if I can.
I feel for Pat Nurse. She feels exactly like me. Until the smoking ban came on 1st July 2007, I was quite happy with my lfe. Now I feel angry every day because this government have perscuted me because I smoke. I have only claimed benefits once in my life for three months. I despair, it is not the country I thought it was. I am 56 years old.
What the hell do we do?
I wonder whether I would be prepared to write this in a few years’ time. I’m not sure even now. Remember Samizdat, the dissidents’ network of communication through carbon copies and duplicators in the days of the Soviet Empire? How those people would have relished the Internet. But ...
Perhaps we are like children running riot in a witch’s house of sweets, like Hansel and Gretel, not knowing that in time someone wants to put us in a pot and boil us up. Are we, perhaps, in some kind of fool’s paradise? Is all this communication too good to be true?
It would only take a malign authority to find a way of monitoring and controlling the whole Internet and we would be dead. We would have put our head in the mouth of the lion, the one who goes about looking for someone ‘whom he may devour’.
‘Alas! regardless of their doom
The little victims play’ (Thomas Gray)
I do hope not.
To all those on here (and elsewhere) who keep spouting on about the Tories "definitely" winning the forthcoming General Election, I have told you over and over again, that there is no such thing as a certainty, and it is for this reason, that I urge everyone to vote with their brain, and not out of anger! As I keep saying, every angry vote, registers one-up for re-electing Labour!
These are the latest figures:
Populus shows Tory lead narrowing!
The Conservatives now only have a 10% lead over Labour, which is down 6% since last week.
And because of the unfair way Labour have rigged Britain's seat distribution, a 40/30 Tory lead into UK Polling Report and you get a Tory majority of just eight seats. Put a 40/30 Labour lead into UKPR and you get a Brown majority of 128!
No, it isn't fair, but this is what we are up against, so maybe now you might be able to see why I am always bashing on about not wasting votes out of pure anger.
Peter - a quick response to a half read post on a frantic morning - I guess we are all on here grilling the Conservatives because they are likely to be the next Govt. Tories, I believe, will not lose much support to UKIP which is reeling in disaffected and abandoned traditional Lab supporters like me who have to find a new party to represent our views.. except in Sleaford and North Hykeham because the Cons really are taking the pee out of local people by parachuting in career politicians in what they believe will be a safe seat.
I am very encouraged by the noises on the lifestyle choice issue from the Cons - Philip Davies in the above post for example. Brilliant stuff.
For me, now, it is not about who wins but who is in opposiition. UKIP is the best option for that. If UKIP support drove the irrelevant ilLibDems into the fringes, and wiped out NuLabour, I couldn't wish for a better election result.
I was beginning to get a bit startled at first when I read Simon's post, but just knew it couldnt be Simon Clark.
However, I do agree with the other Simon and I think that all the main parties would now serve better if they were kicked into opposition.
It would be a wake up call for them to see how people really feel.
Secondly their new buzz word seems to be 'the new world order' and how life as we know it will never be the same again after this recession.
So if life will never be the same for us again anyway, what's the difference then if we had a new government.
It might just be what's needed.
After all they didnt do such a good job of bringing us through the good times.
Why should we have any faith that they will bring us through the bad.
Also remember that EU domination is now looming in the background waiting to rule all of europe, so what great difference would it make in the long run.
"Peter - a quick response to a half read post on a frantic morning - I guess we are all on here grilling the Conservatives because they are likely to be the next Govt"
If you read fully what I said (above) Pat, you will see that, unlike you, I think the Conservatives are "NOT likely" to form the next Government at all.
If a 10% lead cuts their majority down to just eight seats, think what would happen if their lead falls even lower, maybe to just 8% or even 6%.
It doesn't bear thinking about, we would be saddled, probably for life then, with yet another disastrous Labour government. If this awful, freedom taking mob can alter the boundaries as they have done to suit their own agenda, just think what they would do if let in again?
I don't believe that all the people on here who keep telling everyone to vote UKIP are UKIP supporters at all. I believe they are using this tactic as a ploy to take away votes from the Conservatives.
I think people will elect the Conservatives at the next General Election. Peter Thurgood is so worried about people on this forum voting for other parties, but he should be more worried about the rate at which this government is letting people into this country and they will be given the vote and voting for Labour. Clued-up columnists have already mentioned this fact in various articles. This is one of the reasons why voters in certain areas are turning to the BNP and other parties, because the electoral registers are changing rapidly. Also - when under pressure, people do either revert to form, or vote for the party they most likely think will beat the governing party. When the Conservatives form the next government (even if the majority is slight), pressure will be placed upon them to repeal/amend the masses of pathetic legislation which has been imposed upon us. If they don't deliver the goods with regard to that, then the dissatisfaction will continue and pressure will mount even more. However, to conclude, I would suggest that Peter Thurgood does not become too upset at this stage because should we have a winter of discontent - and this is what I predict - then his wish will come true anyway.
I did say, peter, that I had only half read your post. I do actually agree very strongly with what you say but I was trying to make the point that, as far as I have seen, the new support for UKIP is from old labour voters like me. People like us would never have voted Conservative anyway so they have lost no votes from us. We have just switched it from Labour to elsewhere.
I also hear what you say about Nulabour altering the boundaries to effect greater support for them and I hear what Jenny says about immigrants.
As for people not voting Conservative if they come out with an idea for an amendment before the election, I don't believe that to be the case. I think most people are not raging antis - or raging pro-choicers - and they are the ones for whom this issue won't matter a bit. For them it is the economy, education, health, war, etc.. all the things that NuLabour has managed disastrously. These issues are far too important for them to turn against the Tories, who have some very good policies, for equalising a very bad discriminatory law.
Labour has done that very rare thing - upset ALL of the people ALL of the time. We ALL hate them for ALL sorts of reasons. Only their members, the minority group of health zealots that they have pandered to for 12 years, and the financial purse string holders, I suspect the bigotted Bannantyne is among them, who have lined their own pockets thanks to Labour, will stand by them.
If they keep any seats it will be because of the shameless way they have manipulated boundaries and the number of people who can vote.
If they get in again, there will nothing of Britain left. We might as well ALL turn off the lights and leave. Zimbabwe anyone?