SOS - save our shops!
Wednesday, July 23, 2008 As regular readers know, I am not a fan of the No 10 website - or, to be specific, the gimmicky e-petition section. I have lost count of the number of petitions Forest has been asked to support and I have said no to nearly every one - partly because there are too many on the same subject (the smoking ban), and partly because I prefer not to play this government-inspired game. (The anti-hunting ban petition attracted hundreds of thousands of supporters and the government, predictably, ignored it.)
Another problem is that people love to do their own thing. This has led to scores of petitions - often signed by the same people - complaining about the smoking ban, with the result that few (if any) have attracted more than a handful of signatures and the impact has been minimal. (It's that sort of indiscipline that repeatedly hinders the pro-choice movement.)
Anyway, there is a new petition - concerning the government's proposal to ban the display of tobacco in shops - on the No 10 website, and for once I would like to encourage everyone to sign it. It reads:
"We the undersigned petition the Prime Minister to reconsider his Government's proposal to ban the display of tobacco in shops, and consider ensuring instead stronger enforcement of the law to prevent underage sales and illicit trade and to make it illegal for adults to buy tobacco on behalf of anyone under 18."
There are a number of reasons why I think this petition is worth signing. One, I believe it's the only one on this subject that is currently live on the Downing Street website; two, the issue is currently the subject of a public consultation and if a significant number of people sign the petition individuals and organisations will be able to highlight the fact in their submissions; three, it's a very important issue because if the proposal to ban the sale of tobacco in shops becomes law it will not only affect smokers, it could have a devastating impact on small shops and community stores; four, the message it sends is that smoking is an adult activity and responsible smokers will support measures that discourage underage sales - but let's have some respect and consideration in return.
Last but not least, I happen to know the proposer. Ken Patel is a retailer from Leicester and I greatly admire the work that he and his colleagues are doing to lobby government. They deserve Forest's support - and the support of their customers.
So, please sign the petition today - and encourage similar-minded people to do so too. Click HERE.
Reader Comments (30)
What makes the Government think that kids start smoking because they see it on display in shops? This really would be a step too far. It's not fair to punish the shopkeepers in this way, tobacco is legal afterall. The Government need to appreciate that there is such a thing as 'too far.' Whatever happened to the rhetoric of supporting small businesses? All talk and no walk...
I have worked in my Shop for the past twentythree years and always next to the Cig. Counter but i have never smoked in my life.
My shop is surronded by six schools and i can tell you that children do not smoke because they see it in shop.I have never heard any of the teachers who come into my shop ever mentioned it.
It all start in their home and this where we have to start teaching about smoking. Again PLEASE DO NOT BLAME THE SHOPKEEPERS.
Regards,
Ken Patel.
This has led to scores of petitions - often signed by the same people - complaining about the smoking ban, with the result that few (if any) have attracted more than a handful of signatures and the impact has been minimal.
How does anyone know whather a petition has any impact or not? None of them seem to have any effect anyway. If I was a tyrant, I think I might well be more concerned if lots of people petitioned me individually on the street, rather than collectively signed one single petition and formally present it to my vizier. Not that I have any experience...
Ken Patel
My surname is the same as a cigarette brand. If you were to change your name to John Player (SAY), Whould you be allowed to display your name above the shop and around the shop?
I have signe it...
Question is: Are they going to ban candy too because they are fatning and not healthy.
This only think at this point from me if the could ban pharmacetical compagnies to avertise and send me email about all the medecines to buy i do received more than 100 a day
I am still waiting for a statistically meaningful study which links smoking and ill-health...If we are concerned about consumer goods that kill we need to look at the proven cases: Motor-cars spring to mind
Most Doctors are far more concerned about their patients drinking habits , diet & life-style than smoking
All that will happen if the government ban shop displays to help discourage those under age from buying tobacco products is they will get them on the black market and, as we are often told, many of these are counterfeit and particularly harmful - certainly compared to the products we should be able to buy openly in shops as they are legal!
As with drink and many other things, such as knives, guns, drugs, the kids of today are probably more aware of how to easily get these things than most adults and it is petty legislation rather than proper discipline and education that has caused this situation.
Hide tobacco products under the counter in shops and will not be the under age who suffer, but the rest of the community while smokers ask for a particular brand and if it is not in stock, then go through several brands and prices before making a decision,thus holding up everyone else!
All these pathetic, dictatorial laws are doing is encouraging the under age, even more, to smoke and drink and do all the other things that 'Our Lords and Masters' say is bad for us or we shouldn't do.
It might not be a good analogy, but when on the park with my dog, if I want to out her back on her lead, following her and calling her is the worst thing I can do - she thinks that is a great game and will keep wondering just ahead of me (she is a greyhound, so if she decided to go I would have no chance!). The best thing for me to do is turn my back and walk in the opposite direction - invariably she ends up alongside me fairly soon, certainly a lot sooner than if I had continued to follow her!
Kids are the same, make a big deal of it and they will carry on playing the game and trying it all - ignore it and it becomes no big deal, so they don't bother.
I have just signed the petition. I also spoke to my local newsagent about it this morning, and have just sent him a link to the petition, which he is going to sign, and send on to as many people he knows in his trade.
This is going from the sublime to the ridiculous. Shops that sell knives are allowed to display them, petrol stations are allowed to display their different brands of fuel, newsagents are allowed to display pornographic magazines, even though they are on the top shelf, but does anyone in their right mind, think that kids cannot see that far? I recently saw a gun shop in New York, with an enormous model of a 45 automatic hanging outside, advertising what they sell. Bear in mind that New York is even worse with their crusade against the evil weed than Britain is, yet they seem to think that an enormous gun is OK? I know what I'd rather my kid came home with, and it wouldn't be a 45.
But to get back our ridiculous country, (if I must). In yesterday's paper, I saw an article about a waxwork which has been made of Amy Winehouse, and which will be displayed in Madame Tussauds in London. So this is OK, for our kids to be shown an image of a raddled old drug addict, as if she is some kind of hero? This won't effect them, this won't make many of them think that it is all right to take drugs, because Amy does, and look where it has got her?
I am not really saying that people such as Amy Winehouse shouldn't be displayed in Madame Tussauds, what I am saying is that this Government needs to get their priorities right first. Why are they so hell-bent on finishing off the tobacco industry, the leisure industry, and now it would seem, the small shopkeeper as well, and all through their ghastly use of children in their propaganda?
I heard a rumour that Michael Winner has been brought out of retirement, at the request of Gordon Brown, to make a new "Death Wish" movie. There is speculation as to whether it is going to be about the death wish of New Labour as a party, or the death wish by New Labour, of our country, as a whole?
As a child smoker I can say that "the home" was not responsible for me taking up the habit,neither was TV or billboard advertising (I can't remember any) and certainly not the cigarettes on display in shops.
What led me to it was my friends. It was a laugh to be so rebellious. Isn't that what young people do? .. Or at least a phase they go through which is why I believe that to say smoking is wrong and smoking in public is illegal, is to encourage in itself more young people to start.
Hello folks
Just a brief change of subject.
Anybody read the Times today? Quite disturbing.
Gates and Bloomberg to take on governments to pour millions into China and effectivly ban smoking. The'Gates' in question is Elanor Gates.
Also aims to have smoking banned throughout and eradicated.
People with a mission I would say,but not to be sneezed at.
Just who do these people think they are just because they are wealthy to influence others to their whims I ask?.
It is about time Big T wakened up.
I have just Returned from Allborg Denmark, they have a smoking ban, but, you can smoke in a bar or room less than 4M square or there abouts, this means that they can designate a room for smokers (and they do, in general), therefore, the non smokers are happy and so are the smokers, it works on all sides, and the government are seen to "do their bit as well" no one has a problem with it. This is all I ask for, when are we going to stop being dictated to, and stand up for our civil liberties. Come on all of you, lets stop being treated like children and stand together, 26% of our population smoke, all I ask for is the right to do so without affecting non smokers. Lets face it, the ban is akin to banning sunbathing through fear of skin cancer, and excusing the ban by claiming, "poor helpless holiday reps are exposed to the sun in order to do their job", therefore it must be banned. Where will it stop ?. You know the old saying, "If all the people in china stood on a chair and jumped off at the same time, it would cause an earth quake. Together we are strong, but first we must join together, and stop this pathetic and draconian assault on our rights.I dont want to expose children or other non smokers to my smoke, any more than they want to enforce an unfair law like the smoking ban on me.
I quite agree, Paul, that we need to stand together. I haven't seen your name before and it's good to have new people posting - the more smokers who find their way to pro-choice sites and make themselves known, the stronger we can be.
I really get fed up with the smokers I talk to who moan but don't think of doing anything to fight the ban but, there again, I suppose that everyone needs their tipping point. There were certainly people who'd woken up long before I did.
The other problem is that we are generally ignored these days, so it's difficult to know what to do except to try and expose the zeal and deceit of the tobacco control lobby in the hope of a backlash against its increasing demands. Such a backlash should gain momentum as the TCL's demands become ever more outrageous, even to the most prejudiced.
I wanted to sign the petition but could not.
This is because I do not think that it is a good idea to have a petition which incorporates two separate issues. In this case, the two issues are:
1. Banning display of cigarettes.
2. Making purchase of cigarettes on behalf
of minors illegal.
I fully agree with the first, but totally disagree with the second.
My disagreement with the second is not because I think that it is OK to buy cigarettes for minors but because I forsee problems.
In the first place, although the idea of 'make it illegal to buy cigarettes on behalf of minors' sounds simple enough, I believe that it is akin to publicans being required 'not to allow' smoking in their pubs. The idea is woolly and open to many interpretations. E.G. Does a publican 'allow' smoking if he does not use violence to stop a person smoking? The meaning of 'not allow' has not yet been tested in court.
I could certainly see a situation where an adult could be CONSTRUED as supplying cigarettes to a minor if he leaves his cigarettes somewhere where a minor has access to them rather than locking them away at all times.
In the second place, as a parent, would I be happy to see my 19 year old son dragged before the magistrates, condemned and possibly imprisoned for the henious crime of buying a packet of cigarettes and giving one to his 17 year pal? Let us understand that the THERE IS NO LAW IN THIS COUNTRY WHICH ACTUALLY FORBIDS PERSONS UNDER 18 SMOKING. NOR IS THERE A LAW WHICH FORBIDS PERSONS UNDER 18 BUYING CIGARETTES. THE LAW FORBIDS THE SELLING OF CIGARETTES TO UNDER 18s.Your 'on behalf of' proposal would open an awfully big can of worms and possibly make things worse.
If you persist with this petition as currently worded, I believe that, because of the wooliness and because of the 'unintended consequences' problem, the government would be justified in binning it forthwith.
As an aside, not strictly connected with the subject under discussion, I am at a loss to understand why FORREST does not advertise itself. Sometimes, I get the impression that FOREST is some sort of 'old boys club', somewhat akin to the 'flat earth society'. If smokers are to have an impact, it can only be done AS A GROUP. In order to group, smokers have to know how to group - how to come together.
20,000,000 people!
How many are on the internet? Of those, how many know about FOREST? How many are members? How many ever click onto the site?
How many are NOT on the internet? How can they be brought together?
I think that the wooliness of the second part of the petition is indicative of a lack of clarity in what FOREST seeks to achieve. I think that we should have a clear objective.
In my opinion, that clear objective should be this:
WE SMOKERS WANT PRIVATE ORGANISATIONS (PUBS, RESTAURANTS, ETC) TO BE ALLOWED TO PROVIDE A SMOKING ROOM - WELL VENTILATED, COMFORTABLE AND HAVING (POTENTIALLY) THE SAME FACILITIES AS NON-SMOKING ROOMS (TV ETC).
That is it.
Re previous post. When I said 'totally agree with the first, I meant, 'totally agreed with the PETITION against the first!
James, I am sure that Simon will correct me if I am wrong, but Forest is like a spokesperson for the smoker, it is not a campaigning army of smokers. Forest therefor does keep an element of decorum, maintaining credibility so that it can make comments which are printed and not ridiculed. If you are looking for a band of smokers who are gaining in strength on a daily basis, then I am sure Simon won't mind me mentioning freedom2choose.info
Since the law was passed banning under 18s from smoking, I have never seen so many youngsters smoking,Do the people who make these stupid rules have no idea what they are doing, have they never heard of (most parents do) reverse Pshcology , tell people especially youngsters they can,t and they will.
I found my 14year old Grandson smoking, When I asked him why he,d started, he said it was COOL, he and his friends club together to buy a packet of 20 and split them up.
So much then for banning packets of 10s They are already buying 20s.
This stupid ban is going to create far more smokers at an early age than would ever have been if it was never enacted.
Timbone, Anthony Williams, and everyone else:
I am so confused.
Not long ago, I looked at F2C and they were arguing among themselves about who was in charge. They seem now to have got their act together a bit.
Nevertheless, I still believe that it is true that FOREST is rather 'flat earth society'-like.
I read in the 'Daily Telegraph' today, an editorial article which, FOR THE FIRST TIME THAT I RECALL (in a newspaper editorial article), specified an association between the significant loss of business and the closure of local pubs and a REMEDY FOR THE PROBLEM. That is, for the first time in a national newspaper (contrary to prevalent 'omerta' (silence), I have seen the statement that the present smoking law is DRACONIAN. And that the only REASONABLE (none draconian) law would be that:
1. Publicans should not be enforcing the law as though they were policemen.
2. Publicans should be able to decide for themselves whether to be smoking or non-smoking.
Critically, we Englishmen/women are NOT Californian, not Irish, not Scottish, not Welsh. WE WILL NOT CONFORM SO AS TO BECOME THE HEALTHY AUTOMATONS WHICH THE BLAIR BABES (CAROLINE FLINT, ETC) WANT.
I think therefore that, because of the 'chink' which has appeared in the 'omerta' (the (Telegraph Article), FOREST could reasonably amend its CLEAR OBJECTIVE to be:
WE SMOKERS EXPECT OUR PARLIAMENTARY REPRESENTATIVES TO ENSURE THAT PUBLICANS HAVE THE RIGHT TO DECIDE WHAT SMOKING RULES SHOULD APPLY IN THEIR (PRIVATE) PUBS.
What is the problem?
The ban for displaying fags in ireland came out months ago but there're still plain to see at supermarket checkouts and newsagents. Of course ireland had to be the first with that ban too, 'going forward' dont you know.
While on hols in the west of ireland I was aghast to witness a bloke, who plainly looked 30plus years old, being asked to show identification after purchasing a bottle of wine at the checkout in a rural supermarket, when the people around him froze in shock and started looking for some young kid she must have been referring to, the check out girl apologised and explained that it was the new rules out that day that she had to ask anyone under 30 to show identification when purchasing alcohol!! I kid you not.
Pubs in ireland are now closing at the rate of one a day. Family pubs have franchised out their pubs to managers and trade is so bad now that when their leases are up they close them down or sell their licences to off licence which are often situated in our new glittery shopping centers. Its sad to see that the pubs will have to depend on the recession to survive as recessions have always been good for the pub trade. So hopefully the govt wont be able to afford to keep the smoke police and the other quangos in the luxury they have become accustomed to.
A farmer in a rural town in clare was caught on a few occasions for drink driving (3 pints) and the local sergeant told him 'while I'm around here you'll never drive on this road again'. A few weeks later on his way to the pub, he passed the sergeant on the road on his horse and cart and shaking his fist at him shouted 'you wont get me off the road now'. It gives a new meaning to our govt's oft quoted spin words "going forwared"!!
Limerick city caters very well for smokers with plenty of good outside cafe facilities, for night time newmarket street has an excellent well covered outside facility with heaters stretching the length of the street and they're quite busy so it seems to be paying them to do so.
I agree with James Watson that the second part of the proposed petition be dropped completely. Why is it that young people are free to smoke, but not buy, tobacco? Perhaps they are supposed to steal it.
I don't think petitions work with the kind of people we are dealing with; this government has demonstrated again and again a complete contempt and hatred of our people and way of life, which is thoroughly freemasonic/talmudic/soviet.
"freemasonic/talmudic/soviet" - yup! No paranoia there.... hilarious.
I'm sorry, but everything that can be done to deter young people, or people of any age come to that, from smoking has got to be worth a try. It's a disgusting habit and I'm delighted that I rarely have the smell of other people's smoke on my clothes and skin since the ban on smoking in public places. I've had several members of my family die from smoking related diseases, and the sooner it is eradicated the better.
i think smoking is stipid and should be made into a classs a drug
I think it is an awesome idea to stop displaying tobbacco. I hate smoking and if anyone here has any sense visit the website
www.gosmokefree.co.uk and STOP SMOKING!
Fuck the government
Who are they to take away something we have the right to do freely?
FUCK THEM
If i wanna smoke, by god I will smoke
smoking is a matter of choice, some like it and some don't, but just because some don't like it why should everyone have to do what the minority want? pubs and clubs was once a place where all adults was free to go to and enjoy themselves, now it is only a place for gullible snobs to go to. I say bring back freedom of choice and allow smokers to have there own pubs and clubs seperate from there ones and let us see where the mass of people will go for a drink and a good night out.
Just what 'devastating impact' will occur if cigarette brands are removed from dislpay?
Surely smokers know that shops sell them even if they are not displayed!
Smokers are in my opinion the most ignorant and selfish people.
This week I attended a factory where the company had erected a shelter for the smokers with around 5 large metal bins for the cigarette ends.
All round these bins were cigarette ends just thrown onto the floor. They couldn't even bother to use the bin 6 inches from them!
Same goes for any lay by, traffic lights, street. They simply throw them out of the car window or on the floor.
I'd like to see the disgusting habbit outlawed!
Many of you probably have kids or know someone with kids. So you will also know that if you tell a child not to do something, they will inevitabely do it and suffer the consequences which is usually a grounding or something like that, and they will cry and protest or whatever. But constantly tell a child not to do something then you run the risk of them doing it and not caring what the consequences are. This is what the government is doing and we have seen it happen where kids nowadays are constantly being told what NOT to do rather than what they ARE allowed to do. If people really wanted to hlp their children, then they will allow them to make mistakes and learn from them. Poper education and life exeriences is how children learn NOT shielding them from those experiences. And a point to Roy West, I am a smoker, granted not of many years 10+ ( I'm 25 ), but I do hope they get outlawed because the Black Market will be very happy to see that and crime WILL get worse. Remember how the Mafia started in the States? Do you really want more of that? I sure do, because it will affect you more than it will me.
Just another excuse to close small businesses. Then where do you buy cigarettes? Tesco!
More persecution of tobacco for the sake of it.
Will you still be able to display herbal cig's, perhaps?
I am not a smoker myself but I am fed up with all this nanny state crap this stupid undemocratic government throw at smokers, it is totally unnessasery to put NO SMOKING stickers on all shop doors, we all know it's against the law to smoke in shop etc, as far as I am concerned the government should not force pubs to ban smoking as it's better that smokes smoke in pubs and not smoke at home near their kids, if people drink in pub surly they should be allowed to smoke.