Boris joins the banned wagon
Thursday, May 8, 2008 I was invited to be on the Richard Bacon show on Five Live last night. They wanted me to talk about Boris Johnson's plan to ban alcohol on London buses and the Tube. As it happens, I got the message too late because I was in Peterborough watching my son play cricket, but they assumed (I think) that I am against such a ban - which I'm not.
To this day no-one can prove that the Kings Cross fire - which killed 31 people on November 18, 1987 - was caused by a discarded cigarette. Smoking, as ever, was an easy target when the primary problem was the discarded litter that lay beneath the escalators. This was an accident waiting to happen because it could be set alight by the slightest spark, including a spark from the escalator itself.
Nevertheless, I don't think many people object to smoking being banned on Underground trains, or even buses. This is an issue of comfort and I have little sympathy for people who can't go 30 or even 60 minutes without a cigarette while they are (literally) underground.
The same applies (I think) to alcohol. As with tobacco, no-one has a right to consume alcohol whenever or wherever they want. The only question is, does the scale of the problem justify the heavy hand of politicians, or should it be left to a combination of education and peer pressure?
These days I am rarely in London late at night and, when I am, I tend not to use the bus or Tube, so the problem Boris seeks to address (boorish, sometimes threatening, behaviour) has largely passed me by. Nor do I recall it being a serious issue in the 12 years I lived in London. Readers who do live in London and regularly experience London transport at night may like to enlighten me.
Hopefully, the new mayor is not over-reacting to the problem as he seeks to make his mark. Fingers crossed, his next move will be de-regulate rather than regulate. I am also waiting for an early announcement that a modern version of the old Routemaster bus will be back on the road (complete with open platform) as soon as they can be ordered and delivered.
When it comes to freedom, politicians need to give as well as take.
Reader Comments (14)
I heard part of the programme and one interesting point was raised. Banning the consumption of alcohol on trains, when rail companies sell alcohol on the trains.
It makes no sense. People don't turn up on the trains perfectly gentile in nature and then become boors because of the alcohol they consume on the train.
I live in London, and I avoid the tube and busses like the plague, especially late at night or weekends, when we get a large influx of mainly youngsters, coming in from the suburbs to have a good time, and get smashed in the West End.
If I am going out, maybe to a restaurant or friends, I usually go by train and tube, which is fine as it is only about 8 pm, but going home is a different story, I have tried it on a few rare occasions, but each time the experience got worse than the time before.
I have seen fights, and general yobbish behaviour, with swearing and shouting the norm, beer cans and bottles are thrown everywhere, and God help anyone that dares to ask the yobs to take their feet off the seats in front, so that they can sit down.
I have completely given up on late night travelling on public transport in London, I always get a taxi home, it may be a lot more expensive, but at least you can relax and not have to worry about being pushed about and sworn at, or even stabbed by gangs of drunken nutters.
Boris is absolutely right in banning alcoholic drink on busses, tubes and trams, which I think everyone who lives in London would agree is a good thing to help stop yobbish and violent behaviour.
Everyone that is, except union man, Bob Crow, "it will be impossible to police it" he crows, "they should have consulted us first".
Oh yes, Mr Crow, did they consult you and the rest of your left wing crow-nies, when they banned smoking on trains and even on open platforms?
Do us a favour Crow features, and get yourself a life, learn to smile for once instead of constantly crowing about everything. Boris is starting off on the right foot, and I hope he succeeds in helping Londoners to travel in a relaxed and safe atmosphere.
Simon one of your most thought provoking posts which I feel qualified to make some comments on. I knew the Kings Cross fire would eventually end up on the anti smoking radar and read the report. Smoking is presumed, but entirely inconclusive as a cause of the fire. The secondary reason offered is the grease that oils the escalators came into contact with each other in the runners that are moving in opposite direction on the up/down movements. This caused a spark which led to all the tragic deaths. Even in 1987 smoking was banned in the ticket office where the seat of the fire probably started.
Yes, even I can go 30-60 minutes without a smoke on the way home.
It is a long story which I won’t bore you too much with, but for business and family reasons I have lived in East London for 20 years. I would not say I experience deprivation at first hand, but come into contact with in on a daily/weekly basis. I am a daily bus, train and tube user, I commute from Leytonstone on the Central line to work. Living this existence is like playing Russian Roulette. You have 100 chambers and one has a live bullet. So 99 pulls of the trigger and nothing happens, 2-3 times a year something happens. In the last year I have endured two attempted muggings, burglary, and my car stolen.
When I lived in Hackney, and the nice bit too (Clapton), three people have been murdered within 400 yards of my home. This sets the scene for the level of crime and ignorance. Against this general backdrop the tube is not too bad late at night. Yes people have too much to drink and make ar5es of themselves, same with the buses and trains but I have not seen too many problems. The biggest problems I have encountered are either just getting off or the walk home from the station or stop. However despite my reduced size, the way the inner city brutalises you into becoming an aggressive being when confronted would make you think I was schizophrenic. I won’t extrapolate too much, but Hackney was becoming so bad I had to take arguably, illegal measures to protect myself.
The drinking ban is more symbolic than real but will not do any harm. The real way to cure the problems is, in my experience very un-PC and would have Simon reaching for his metaphorical red pen to delete my entry.
Boris has the right instinct with this policy, but I think it misses the point. What we would all like to ban is drunkeness/rowdy behaviour on public transport - but sadly the ban will not stop that. People will still board buses and trains in a drunken state because, well, this is Britain. In fact we encourage people to take public transport on a night out rather than get in their cars.
If you stop and think about it when was the last time you actually saw someone drinking whilst on the tube? And if they were how much more drunk did they get during their journey?
Ok, so perhaps the policy is more symbolic than anything and will just underline the message that people should behave on public transport. Perhaps.
As for the practicalities, I cant see the football fans refraining in a hurry, as there will be no one to enforce it. Also, does this mean the end to Cabernet in first class? Preumably yes. Which is kind of a shame, even though I rarely travel first class.
Perhaps they should remove the champagne bar at Kings Cross while they are about it - surely thats also an encouragement.
I may be proved wrong, but I cant see much changing with this policy - it sends out a signal but nothing more, and its tempting to see it as Boris playing to the Gallery in his first week at the helm...
I suspect if Ken had banned alcohol on the tube you'd have (quite rightly) complained about this being yet another aspect of the Labour nanny state, but when Boris implements it then it's supposedly a good idea?
It's restricting freedom of choice, plain and simple. Smoking can cause discomfort to those around, the smell sticks to their clothes, etc (so I understand why that is banned in public places, but I'm against the ban in pubs, etc where people can choose not to go).
The problem is not alcohol on the trains, but certain types of drunks. This will solve nothing as people get drunk before boarding the train. Those who just want to relax with a can of beer and cause no harm to anyone are disadvantaged.
If litter is the problem then maybe ban all food and drinks on board. If smell is the problem a lot of types of food smell stronger than a beer.
As for the routemaster, I believe that was just a flat out lie by Boris. No new open platform bus will be approved due to health and safety law. If he does bring in a new routemaster it'll probably be some rear entry bus, but with a door for 'safety reasons' - therefore not really a routemaster.
Why don't we all knock Boris for changing his hairstyle as well, I mean he didn't say he was going to do that did he?
Isn't it ironic that the first thing that Boris, a supposed libertarian, does is to ban something. Brilliant!
Devil's kitchen has a good (to my mind) take on this,
If Boris manages to ban thugs from public transport, then how bad is that?
He said right through his campaign that he wanted to target thuggish bahaviour, and this is exactly what he is doing.
Peter, Boris is not banning thugs, he's banning alcohol. There are sober thugs. There are also laws already in existence for dealing with thuggish behaviour. It's what the police used to be for before they became tax collectors and pen pushers.
Re: The Kings Cross Fire
Did they ever bother to find out who the man in blue overalls was seen entering a door under the escalator - no of course not.Nowadays he would have been made a terror suspect. Having said that I can remember on numerous occasions in the good old days before the smoking ban on the tubes, trying to light a match on an escalator. It was impossible because the prevailing wind coming from the tunnels and down the escalator blew the match out so I have never believed the story about the lighted match. It would be a chance in millions for a match to fall between the slats anyway even if you tried.
RE: Trains tubes and buses
When I work up in London I have to suffer a 2 hour train journey up to Victoria. From Victoria I have to make my way to Kensal Rise in north London which involves a journey on the District Line to Westminster, then Jubilee Line to West Hampstead and finally a journey on London Overground to Kensal Rise which takes me nearly 3 hours. With the vindictive smoking ban network rail have imposed on platforms and stations, I have to go for over 3 hours without a cigarette. On those journeys I have to suffer the discomfort of smelling the people's body odour, men who wear the same suit day in day out and quite frankly stink of dried excrement. I am sure they must wear the same underpants for a week. It was the first thing I noticed when smoking was banned on the tubes. Anyway Simon, if, without a university degree, I could work out where the smoking carriages were on the tubes why could not the whining non smokers work out where the non smoking carriages were? They just wanted it all their on way and they got it.I actaully did wonder if the Kings Cross fire was started by a maniac non smoker!
On my smoke free journey home in the evening I do not see what is wrong with me buying a small bottle of wine, which I do at M&S for consumption on the train journey. It seems inevitable they will then go onto ban drinking on the trains as well completing the ban of any small pleasure the hard pushed comuter gets.
Long live democracy!!!
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I understand this ban does not simply apply to the consumption of alcohol on buses and the tube but to having it there at all. IFF, I am right, then how does that figure with doing your shopping and carrying it home on these modes of public transport when that shopping may include some alcoholic purchases?
As I said, if I'm right, that would be ridiculous, impractical and truly unenforceable.
Another point worth considering is that on very cold days I often carry a small hip flask containing a couple of shots of brandy (when I'm not driving of course). Some towns and cities not only ban the consumption of alcohol on public transport but also on the street. Seriously, if anyone expects me not to take a sip from my hip flask in such locations when the weather is cold, they can definitely think again.
It's interesting, finally, that Labour's response is to think they can now ban alcohol consumption on train journeys. This is a mentally bankrupt government, but don't give them any encouragement, for banning things is something they are all too good at and Johnson's "initiative" has seriously tempted them to try and go one better. I think the word I am looking for to describe their general disposition rhymes with the word "bankers".
Blad
A reliable source (a tube train driver) told us that the ban on alcohol is unenforceable unless tfl rethink their staff drinking policy. Transport for London have a zero tolerance policy banning any staff in uniform, whether on or off duty from even handling alcohol under the threat of dismissal. So if someone is caught drinking on public transport who is going to be the one to confiscate it, as if any member of staff is seen holding an alcohol can/bottle they will be sacked. I do know of one instance where a friend of mine who worked as a platform attendant at Baker Street Station had gone off duty and met some friends and me in a pub in Marylebone for a Christmas drink. He was wearing his own top coat and trousers but as it was cold he had kept his Blue London Underground jumper on underneath. The top of his coat was slightly open and all you could see was a little bit of blue underneath. Somebody in the pub recognised him and called him outside and had a go at him. This same nice person grassed him up to LT and he got the sack over it. I would add he was only drinking a glass of orange juice in the pub. He said he was not even allowed to do his shopping in Waitrose/Sainsbury's etc. wearing his uniform.
We are specialize in Nike shox,this kind of shoes are suitable for sport ,when we do some outside execises ,we can prepare one ,it’s the newest fashion ,many star like it vey much ,if you like sport , if you are pursuing fashion ,we are the best ,and we have a lots styles for you to choose , Nike air Max 90 Nike air Max 2009 and so on …the high quality cheap max ,,there are a lot of air max wholesaler ..its worthy to purchase