Why I won't be celebrating St George's Day
Wednesday, April 23, 2008 So, today is St George's Day. (You can hardly miss it, especially if you read the Telegraph. They've devoted a whole 8-page section to it.) I'm as English as the next man, although I normally describe myself as British, but it's not something I feel the need to shout about or "celebrate" in some artificial manner.
I have been conditioned, I think, by living half my life in Scotland where I witnessed, at close hand, the negative impact of petty nationalism. It often seemed to me that you couldn't be Scottish unless you were anti-English as well.
I didn't notice it at school (St Andrews) or university (Aberdeen), apart from a few humorous comments, but when I returned to Scotland in the early Nineties it was painfully obvious that the whole thing had turned rather nasty. Some blame Thatcher for the institutionalised, anti-English outlook, but I don't buy that. In my experience, the most vociferous anti-English comments came from middle-class professionals - accountants and solicitors - the very people who benefitted most from her policies.
Numerous incidents spring to mind. One took place in 1994 when Murrayfield hosted the World Rugby Union Sevens Cup. England brought a team devoid of "names" such as Will Carling (a hate figure in Scotland), but that didn't stop the braying, barbour-jacketed crowd venting their spleen every time England appeared on the pitch. I felt physically sick.
Day after day the Scottish media stoked the fire. If, like me, you read most of the papers, it was relentless and fairly depressing. (If you didn't read the papers it probably wasn't so bad.) A typical headline in the Scottish Daily Mail during Euro 96 screamed: WHY WE HATE THE ENGLISH WHEN THEY'RE WINNING. (I don't know why they added the words "when they're winning".)
I remember watching the England-Spain game at a friend's house south of Glasgow. His brother (in his early thirties) watched the match with us. Ignoring the fact that I was in the room, he kept up a running anti-English commentary and stalked out in a huff when England won the game on penalties.
Euro 96 was the first time I can recall the widespread appearance of the flag of St George. Prior to that England supporters waved the Union flag, which was (unwittingly) a red rag to the Scottish bull. How dare the English adopt the British flag as their own! Then, when the Union flag was replaced by the flag of St George, that was just as bad. It's all right, it seems, for people to celebrate being Scottish by waving the Saltire, but woe betide an Englishman who sticks a white flag with a red cross on his car or house.
I haven't lived in Scotland for nine years and I am told there is less anti-English feeling than there used to be. Hmmm. I still don't know many Scots (apart from Gordon Brown) who would welcome an England victory in a world cup at any sport.
If attitudes are changing that has to be good for Scotland because there are only so many times you can blame your neighbour for all your ills and perceived slights. Perhaps devolution has something to do with it. Maybe independence would accelerate the process. I have my doubts.
Anyway, I've probably said too much. I have many Scottish friends who are not overtly anti-English and I admit that I am over-sensitive on the subject (even though I married a Glaswegian!). Nevertheless, it's interesting to note that crafty Alex Salmond is not averse to stoking anti-Scottish feelings in England in a bid to achieve independence (as THIS article in The Spectator explains).
You see, no-one knows better than the nationalists the power of negative thinking. So, please, no Little Englander type comments on this blog. Positive thoughts only, please!
Reader Comments (33)
Good God, Simon, I hope that English people reading your post are not left with the impression that we Scots are rampant (sorry!) anti-English bigots. We're much too busy hating each other - Catholics and Protestants in the West of Scotland, Glaswegians hating Edinburgh people, Aberdonians hating Glaswegians...!
I believe that your friends are right in saying that, since Devolution, anti-English feeling has diminished and I appreciate why. Since the Union Scots have felt that England has been insensitive to Scotland's status, history and culture. A minor example of this was the inscription of EIIR on post boxes in Scotland after the coronation of the Queen - there was such an outcry (and, I believe, rightly so) that the inscription was amended.
As a Scot living in England, I've been taken aback by attitudes that I've encountered. I remember one gentleman who was livid that Scots had voted for devolution - ingrates, the lot of us! I regularly put up with people putting on what they fondly imagine is an amusing Scottish accent (they'd be utterly astonished if I reciprocated!) and now, in my job, I very frequently come across anti-Scottish sentiment because of the choice that Scotland has been able to make through Devolution to heavily subsidise welfare.
In being granted devolved powers, I think that Scots feel that their resentments have been acknowledged and addressed and few want Salmond's separatism.
What seems to be happening now is that English people are experiencing resentment because celebration of English culture and traditions seems to be under attack by a government that probably believes that such celebration undermines multi-culturalism.
I disagree with you that to celebrate and take pride in one's own country is dangerously nationalistic. I am fiercely proud of Scotland and so I can empathise with English people who are just as proud of England. The two aren't mutually exclusive
I've said it on another thread, but I'll again wish English readers a Happy St. George's Day.
An interesting article in The Spectator, Simon, and the comments were revealing. I spotted two in particular. One stated that there is not much point in such a discussion as England has now ceased to exist on the European map. It has been regionalised into European regions all of which have new names. It says that Scotland and Wales still have their original names, however. I don't know where she got her map from, but my copy gives only 5 regions which include Scotland and Wales. As I've mentioned before, my region, the South East including London, is the Trans Manche Region and yours Joyce is the North Sea Region. In that region most of Scotland and most of England are joined. Wales and Ireland are in the Hibernian Region.
We don't get much news from the media but I understand that the House of Lords are still slowly debating through the intracacies of the Lisbon Treaty. Seems to me that should we wish to ever have a discussion like this in the future, our much maligned traditional old upper house are the only hope we have left. Unless, of course, our existing Members of Parliament do start taking the outcome of complete EU control really seriously and do something about it..
The second relevant comment to the above Spectator article simply read: "Bill40 - signed sealed and delivered as planned."
In my own little life, I've never found much difficulty in relationship with Scottish people - apart from the language difficulty. As a Tour Guide, I've taken many coach loads of English people all over Scotland and found nothing but a huge warmth and welcome. Twice a year, a Scottish coach company descends on Folkestone full of Scots from all areas. I take them across the Channel and give a guided tour along the lovely coast line towards Le Touquet. I apologise because I will be giving them the history and geography of the region in a foreign language - which always raises a laugh. I'm probably one of the few English people they ever meet and are able to talk to. They are eager to talk and the general impression I get is that they don't like the SNP and feel that the extra perks they now get are unfair. They feel that we are all being manipulated.
And a Happy St.George's Day to you too, fellow Britisher Joyce.
I am 75% English and 25% Welsh and Scottish. I am one of the people like Simon who look upon myself as British first and English second. Infact when abroad the last thing I am is European. I feel I have more in common with a black Jamaican, Indian or in New York Fijians. The last people I will go an introduce myself to would be Swedish or Italian. However I am largely blonde with some ginger and there is some strong research, based on genetics that I maybe partly neanderthal! All too true. However for me it is still "King Harry for England", or "once more to he breach dear friends or fill it with our English dead"
Dont worry Simon ireland scotland and wales just love to have someone to hate its in our nature and england once so big and powerful who else was there. Things are changing now with the encroachment of the eu so you'll probably have to take the flak for a few more years yet until we're fully integrated with multiculturism that we're told is going to be wonderful and woe betide us if we dont go along with it. I dont think we're going to be allowed to hate the eu or even if we are how can you hate a faceless organisation especially when we're all in the same melting pot. I am really stunned to hear that the british isles have already been sliced up into regions and thanks Margot for letting me know that I'm now living in the Hibernian region.
Why, when the subject is St George, are you going on and on about Scotland? Scotland is just an unfortunate lump of rock that somehow became stuck to our island. Unfortunate for the English to whom these 'Scotch' have been a constant source of trouble for centuries.
No blood and guts now, but they are still a hefty thorn in the side of the English economy.
I am English. I wish I wasn't because we English have constantly made a mess of being human. We have a political system which is beyond belief, ruled by an elite created with our full knowledge and consent which has not the slightest interest in or knowledge of those it is supposed to represent. An elite which works in he shadows with deception and deceit purely for its own ends. It is not answerable to Queen or country, it can pass horrendous laws that can, and will lead to the total destruction of England per se. Truth went out the window in 1987. Power by consensus has now gone and been replaced with power by coercion and propaganda moving into a method of governance unacceptable to me.
Until England rids itself of the Party System in which MPs are answerable to their 'whips' and not to their constituents, we will be fettered by narrow and blind party dogma, which, in turn, will continue to destroy what is left of a beautiful country. The England I knew in my youth is no more, and as the petty controls invade our lives in ever increasing leaps and bounds, we are not leaving much of a future for our grandchildren.
I rest my case.
>Truth went out the window in 1987.
Why 1987, Ben?
Oh dear, oh dear. Well you might rest your case, Joyce. If only I had time and space here to tell it how it was - right back through history. It was a question of survival, on both sides of the border. AND the Scots were allied with the French for much of that time. Go forward in history to the point where we really were a United Kingdom. Think of wartime and our English pride in the tough Scottish regiments. They were the ones sent first to the trouble spots; the swirl of the bagpipes struck terror into the heart of the enemy.
That was history. This is the present.
Now we are at war again. Just as we were against Hitler's Europe. Or Napoleon's Europe. Or Spain's Europe. Much worse this time as our leaders have betrayed us and joined with Europe against us.
Never has there been a time when it is more imperative that we stand together as a United Kingdom. Forget petty grievances. Some of these are being deliberately manufactured.
I just cannot believe that this unimportant rubbish is still going on.
Margot, Simon's original post was rather startling and gave the impression that anti-English feeling in Scotland is widespread and deeply embedded. Of course I will not stand by without offering an explanation and a refutation of embedded bigotry.
I pointed out that bigotry is not the preserve of the Scots and lo and behold Ben Ellis obliged in his offensive and highly inflammatory remarks. If he was deliberately provocative, my response was a model of restraint.
You can't have it both ways. If your fears of EU power come to pass, Margot, you will not regard your grievance as "petty" and nor were Scotland's grievances in the past. In the present there is little anti-English feeling on the part of the Scots. There is, however, anti-Scottish feeling in England which Alex Salmond is trying to heighten for his own political ends, and against the wishes of the electorate in Scotland, at a time when the greater threat of the EU looms large.
My intention was to agree with you, Joyce. I much admired your restrained response. The pettyness I referred to lay in Ben's offensive remarks. They surprised me as the rest of his comment was intelligent and to the point.
I too would like to know why he singled out 1987.
It was probably a typing error - he meant 1997!!
Thank you Margot, my apologies for misinterpreting. I, too, was surprised by the intelligence and eloquence of the rest of Ben Ellis' post.
I would just like to say that I think it a great shame that mischief-makers keep peddling the myth of an anti-English Scotland. If it were true, then Alex Salmond would not have to manipulate and fuel resentment felt in England in an attempt to realise, by the back door, a dream that only he and a modest band of supporters hold.
that "unfortunate lump of rock..." (Ben Ellis)
http://www.dwrobertson-photography.com/thumbnails.asp
"...these 'Scotch' [sic] have been a constant source of trouble..a hefty thorn in the side of the English economy." (Ben Ellis)
A few of these troublesome parasites:
John Logie Baird - inventor of television
Alexander Graham Bell - inventor of the telephone
Andrew Carnegie - renowned philanthropist
John Boyd Dunlop - inventor of the modern tyre
Sir Alexander Fleming - discoverer of penicillin
Charles MacIntosh - inventor of the raincoat
Kirkpatrick MacMillan - inventor of the bicycle
William Murdoch - inventor of gas lighting
James Young Simpson - discoverer of chloroform
Elizabeth Bowes-Lyon - the late Queen Mother (generally regarded as a national treasure and the nation's favourite granny)
I can't blame you for not letting this go, Joyce. Those comments were unbelievable, especially in view of what Simon had just written.
As something of an historian, I do understand the motivations behind historic clashes between the nations and regions of our United Kingdom. On the face of it, England does not come out of it smelling of roses - of any colour. People like Ben Ellis should consider very carefully before coming out with such a flippant remark. However, because English people are as they are, warts and all, these islands have remained intact and independent - until now!
On my mother's side, we are the Armstrong clan. With a long proud history as sheep stealers and border pirates. Our half of the clan settled in Northumberland. We are English but wear the same tartan as our other half in Scotland. We are not bothered either way and nobody can understand our dialect either -including me, much of the time. [Cue - angry letters pouring in at me from my enraged relatives up North].
Time to bury these differences and stand together again as a united nation against a much greater enemy than we have ever had before. [Said she - pompously.]
Margot, I knew that someone as feisty as you must have some Scots blood in her! On a serious note, my intention isn't to keep harping on about this but, you know, I'm aware that, although FOREST is UK based, people from all over the world might very well be reading this blog. (Perhaps they'll enjoy those rather nice photos!)
I absolutely agree with you Joyce.
Mind you, Joyce, not so much of the "feisty". What about a bit of respect for my advancing years. And what about that peaceful pottering retirement I have worked so hard to achieve? Anyone care for a holiday on the Kentish coast with a bit of overgrown gardening thrown in? And don't all rush down here because you can pop across the Channel for fags.
While we are having Sunday chat on what, hopefully, is a long forgotten thread.I am a bit sad today. One of my life long heroes and a bit of a personal friend has died. Dear old ever-young Humphrey Littleton at age 86. That superb witty best UK jazz player ever, has left us now. Playing his mellow trumpet and broadcasting right up until the end - as he would have wanted it.
Yes, I was sorry to hear of his death, Margot. I always thought that he had a twinkle in his voice when he presented "I'm sorry...Clue" and always thought of him "in the same breath" as George Melly, both such characters. I don't find young comedians as appealing - they seem to be vain, self-important and apt to sneer. For me Marcus Brigstock sums them up.
Did you enjoy the OGC story? The gaffe is now firmly in the public domain with merchandise featuring the offending logo on sale. The whole episode just typifies this appalling Government - £14K of taxpayers' money! but as Ed Balls would say, "So what?" I'm told that, last year, when The Public Guardianship Office became The Office of the Public Guardian it cost £1 million.
Yes, George Melley was good but Humph was in a league of his own. As a teenager, I never missed a concert of his in my home town of Nottingham. My brothers and I were huge jazz fans - still are. One night, his whole band, but not Humph, came back to the flat I shared with a girlfriend. They sat cross legged on the floor and carried on playing into the carpet to muffle the sound. Not long ago,he came to the open air amphitheatre in Folkestone. I persuaded my son & girlfriend to go there with me. In the interval they went off to fetch some beers and I sat on the sea wall with Humph and chatted about the old days. It was a beautiful summer evening and I will never forget it. He autographed a CD for my new born grandson when they came back. We saw him once more at the Marlowe Theatre in Canterbury.They are glad that they met him. Apart from his music, his dry wit was superb; impeccable timing and always sharp as a razor -but kindly with it.
No, I don't know the OGC story. Tell me? I've just had an email from a friend recommending something on Devil's Kitchen today. We think it is the best blog and gets right behind the scenes at the EU. Their dirty tricks are amazing but it seems there is nothing anyone can do at the moment. The way they are stitching up Ireland is really awful. Trixy, too, is worth a read. She is with UKIP in Brussels.
http://more-to-life-than-shoes.blogspot.com/.
Hope your weekend has been good. Mine has.
Please see the taxation without representation thread on the free society, my post above the one from Jo where I've put a link.
I'll look at the Devil's Kitchen blog and Trixy's, thanks for the link.
Don't you just feel like screaming sometimes because people seem more concerned about Eastenders than what's going on?!
No.I love the Soaps - especially Corrie. They are just about the only T/V worth watching is that grey controlled media. Goodness knows how they continue to get away with it. People still live natural lives in them; people still smoke in them and I've never heard any anti-smoking propoganda on them. In fact there is none of the "spin" we have to put up with everywhere else.
As I say - I don't know how they continue to get away with it. Their script writers and actors are the very best and every human condition is featured, in a realistic way, at some time or another. Big Brother controls the rest of T/V.
One thing to enjoy soaps, another to be oblivious to what's going on in real life as many seem to be!
Have a good week, Margot.
I think I had better qualify the above, Joyce. It's just the three main Soaps. They are conveniently on as I lie Roman style on a sofa with my one meal of the day on a table beside me. Glass of rot-gut red wine, of course. The meal is huge and has red meat, gravy, potatoes, veg & home-made sauces. All cooked from fresh. I eat slowly and with great enjoyment. I often fall asleep before the Soaps finish.
That's just about it for T/V viewing apart from the News before they start. I hate all hospital and police Soaps but love the contrived satirical panel "games", should I come across them. I rarely think about food during the day and am usually too busy anyway. I am small, slim and fit. I smoke a lot.
I take your further point regarding people being oblivious to everything else. In my work, I do meet a lot of people - more than in most jobs. From my own experience, I've come to the conclusion that the "mindless masses" may be a bit of a middle class myth. I've never actually met anyone who centres their lives around the Soaps or any other T/V and who does not think outside the box.
Many occasions come to mind. For example, in recent years, had to attend a meeting at the NEC in Birmingham. I travelled from the South by National Express coach to the central Birmingham bus station and then by local bus. I got on this little local bus. I was the only white person on it. I felt intimidated, especially as the driver pointed to a fixed locked metal box and said he wasn't allowed to carry money and I must put the correct fare into it. I had no change and appealed to people sitting nearby. Within seconds, the entire bus was galvanisd into helping me. We got chatting and I learned much about these "deprived" people from their inner city high rise flats. Birmingham accents were thick around me. They were not stupid or bigotted or narrow minded. The topics ranged far and wide. They were eager to help me find the correct bus stop as we neared the NEC and gave me directions how to walk there. They waved friendly smiling goodbyes as the bus moved away.
This is only one of many experiences I have had within all walks of life.
Joyce: I also eat lots of fish. [Like - who cares!]
Apologies needed here for recommending the Devil's Kitchen without pointing out that much written there seems frentically fuelled by swear words. However, that blog and Trixy do seem to uncover much that is going on which other blogs don't. HAVING SAID THAT, it has created a new party, the Libertarian Party which it advertises. This is a pity as that party promises all sorts of good things but has no MPs, no prospective MPs, and not much structure as far as I can see. It could split the UKIP vote and appeal to people dying for some revolutionary action RIGHT NOW who are not bothered about reading any small print.
Having said that, it gives some superb inside information from time to time.
Being fairly computer inept, I have persevered with transferring your OGC reference to the top. I found right clicks must be used. Well, you are right - what a gem it is, also the mass of comments that followed. The comments say it all - no need for me to add.
You might like to promote it again if you can. A 'must read' for everyone but explain, perhaps, how such references can be right clicked and used without having to type it all out. [If you would be so kind!!!]
Have a good week yourself.
Joyce: I also eat lots of fish. [Like - who cares!]
Apologies needed here for recommending the Devil's Kitchen without pointing out that much written there seems frentically fuelled by swear words. However, that blog and Trixy do seem to uncover much that is going on which other blogs don't. HAVING SAID THAT, it has created a new party, the Libertarian Party which it advertises. This is a pity as that party promises all sorts of good things but has no MPs, no prospective MPs, and not much structure as far as I can see. It could split the UKIP vote and appeal to people dying for some revolutionary action RIGHT NOW who are not bothered about reading any small print.
Having said that, it gives some superb inside information from time to time.
Being fairly computer inept, I have persevered with transferring your OGC reference to the top. I found right clicks must be used. Well, you are right - what a gem it is, also the mass of comments that followed. The comments say it all - no need for me to add.
You might like to promote it again if you can. A 'must read' for everyone but explain, perhaps, how such references can be right clicked and used without having to type it all out. [If you would be so kind!!!]
Have a good week yourself.
Re the OGC story, I'm computer illiterate and don't understand right clicks!! I just highlight links, copy then paste. Confusion reigns - I thought that you had directed ColDee to the link, hence my cryptic comment on the cereal story thread on the free society!!
I've come across the Libertarian Party but decided that UKIP stands a much better chance and still ticks all the right boxes. F2C is also promoting UKIP on its front page (just wish we knew how many visitors it attracts but, there again, some information is better unpublicised.
Confusion continueth! Thanks for picking up on that. I directed Col Dee there because a not particular funny comment asked whether he had had a sex change. For no reason whatsoever as far as I could see. Unfortunately, three comments below this bit of humour someone else referred to an article they had read about a transexual.
Such tiny seeds can be sewn and stick in people's minds. A bit like the suggestion that UKIP may have been linked to another party, which was soon escalated, by the same person, into saying that they actually were linked to that party.
Fortunately, dear upright Col overlooked this silly bit of spin.
Yes, UKIP are getting a fair representation on F2C. Have you actually become a member? There's good stuff coming through from them now. I'm going to try and get to their Law & Order Conference in Suffolk on 31st May. I have a brother who lives in Suffolk. Any chance of you going to this? It will be good to meet "our" leaders in person.
The confusion continues - I thought that when Col said that he couldn't "work out" what you meant that this was a euphamism I hadn't heard of and that he had, in fact, found the link!!
I won't be able to get away to Suffolk but hope that there are local meetings. I'm usually working evenings so getting to things is difficult.
Comment on the threads seems to be slow. I wonder if we're being rather impolite, in the world of blogs, by having this little 'private' chat on this one?
Euphamisms abound! A chuckle a minute. Yes, I'm guiltily aware of the private chat aspect. They'll be offering us a Joyce & Margot Chat Corner, next - if they don't ask us to desist completely and get back to our knitting. I'm risking that, by now, nobody is reading this so am going to sneak in my my email address for you to tuck away, just in case. margotjohnson@talktalk.net. My thoughts keep returning to OGC and the enormity and full implications of this Jobs for the Boys set up. There'll be many more Quangos tucked neatly away and eating up tax payers' money. An honest government, if we ever get one again, will have a couple of years work just smoking out these disgraceful wasp nests. There were even a couple of comments from within OGC defending it and saying that it was saving the country money by helping government departments achieve deadlines and bringing things in under target. The deadlines and targets, of course, having been created by other useless expensive impediment Quangos. What a stinking cesspit it all is! More strength to UKIP - sorry you can't attend that meeting.
I've noted your email address, Margot, and will send you an email so that you have mine.
The columnist, Richard Littlejohn the other day spent a great deal of his column writing about the gerrymandering efforts of NuLabour and ended with a flippant remark about NuLabour abolishing voting, altogether, except that it sounded more like a warning.
There was also a letter to the Editor in yesterday's "Mail", written by someone who works in the EU denying that the EU is 'regionalising' countries and wittering about cross-region projects which sounded like regionalising by another name.
There is a story on the FOREST news-feed from the 'Publican' about the ban in Germany. The ban is not going well (hurrah!). Germans are being fed the lie that in the UK everyone embraces the ban and that smokers are giving up in their droves. Something to bear in mind when we get fed such stories about bans in other countries (I've had trouble believing that the French have welcomed it). In fact, I think this needs to be highlighted
I agree, Joyce, and have already started to write to knowledgeable friends in other European countries to ask what the feeling in these countries really is. I await their replies with interest.
I've sent you an email, Margot.