A message to smokers from Boris Johnson
Wednesday, April 2, 2008 A few years ago Boris Johnson (now an MP and a London mayoral candidate) responded to a letter from Forest with the following message of support. Smoking bans, he wrote, are a "classic example of Labour's bossy, hysterical, annoying approach. They should leave it to individual pubs and restaurants to decide. Vote Tory! Vote for freedom!"
Today, in response to a gentle enquiry about Boris's policy on the smoking ban, a reader received this email from the Back Boris campaign team:
Boris feels that the smoking ban has actually been implemented with very few problems. It was designed to ensure that workplaces are free from smoke so employees were not exposed to the harmful effects of smoke.
While Boris has some sympathy for smokers he does support the law. If there is anything else you would like to bring to our attention, please do not hesitate to get back in contact with us. It is vital that we hear from Londoners about the issues that matter to them.
To put this in perspective, the mayor of London does not (to my knowledge) have the power to overturn national legislation, so the ban was never going to be a major issue in the forthcoming election. It is, however, disappointing to hear Boris abandon his previous position in favour of a disingenuous, Cameron-style response.
If you have any thoughts on the matter you can contact the Back Boris team HERE.
PS. If I lived in London I would still vote for him. Anyone but Ken!
Reader Comments (176)
I'm writing in shock after seeing what Margot Johnson said about the Arc Manche Region and it being put under the control of a french man and for no one to be made aware of it, not even the newspapers picking up on it or have they been silenced too. Seems to me that all the wars england, scotland and wales and ireland fought for in the past stand for nothing when we now let our countrys be invaded without having even fired a shot. There's just one small hope on the horizon, ireland because of its constitution is the only country in europe allowed to have a referendum on the lisbon treaty and its being held on the 14th june, my fervent hope is that the electorate will have the political intellegence to see the bigger picture and give it a resounding NO vote, but I'm not holding my breath, remember ireland was the first country in europe to bring in the smoking ban without a whimper, yes mr brussels did a good job there by telling ireland they were world leaders and they're still dining out on the spin. Still,one can but hope.
Weekend greetings from the Arc Manche Region!
Re the EU, there was an interesting piece on Devil's Kitchen a few days ago (http://devilskitchen.me.uk/) - scroll down to "Quote of the Day" which covered Lord Pearson of Rannoch's speech in the Lords.
OK, you'll have to live with the swearing but DK is a well thought out and very cogent blog that, to my mind at least, talks a lot of sense.
It's quite scary just how far down the EU route our political masters have taken us and even more so when you think that much of the news has effectively been smothered by the mainstream media so that most people just have little idea of whats happening. A bit like the zero coverage of the effects of the smoking ban!
If people were really aware of the real situation and all it's implications I suspect that support for all three main political parties would crumble very quickly.
The discussion has moved on a lot since I was last able to comment. Firstly, I would like to provide more up-to-date information re: UKIP and its position on the smoking ban, but I can't find any more recent material, but I am pleased to have provided the links I could in order to give credibility to UKIP's more libertarian policies. Obviously (and I previously stated this) there are UKIP members who are in favour of a blanket ban. I experienced that at a recent meeting. We produced the famous beer mats for universal perusal and I had a difference of opinion with a couple of members, one of whom informed me that,"I will just have to get used to it!" I can, however, verify that Nigel Farage (Party Leader) and Godfrey Bloom UKIP MEP are opposed to this draconian legislation and individual candidates are allowed to express their opposition to it, should they choose to do so. Secondly, I do agree with Peter Thurgood that we all have the same aim (to smash the stranglehold of the present ruling party and this legislation). We all have the right to choose to do this in whichever way appeals to each individual. Other people such as Col Dee and Margot have pointed out the various choices (eg. UK Libertarian Party). I don't know anything about this party, but if the fringe vote becomes too fragmented, obviously there is the danger that the ruling party will remain in power. It is my personal choice at this point to give UKIP a chance. Basil Brown made the point about representatives being individuals. This is quite true, however very often the individuals feel unable to vote against the party line, although I do admire the ones who choose to do so. A good example of this is when Nick Clegg recently told his Liberal Democrat MPs that they should abstain re:the vote for a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty on March 5th. 51 MPs abstained (including my local MP) but Greg Mulholland (LidDem MP for Leeds North-West) voted in favour of holding a referendum. Now that the mayoral campaign is gaining momentum, perhaps Boris Johnson feels he is under similar pressure, where the smoking ban is concerned, to go along with what now appears to be the conservative party line. Finally - all this talk about Arc Manche - it is indeed, very frightening. Perhaps we, in Yorkshire, will end up being an extension of Schleswig-Holstein or Jutland. I can conclude by mentioning that UKIP's position regarding the referendum issue is perfectly clear. In short - we want one!
As you probably know, Jenny, you are in the designated "North Sea Region". It's by far the biggest and stretches from the East Coast to cover most of middle England and Scotland. It also includes Holland and Belgium. [I don't know whether the Belgian bit reaches as far as Brussels.] Holland and Belgium will also lose their national name, of course, and like us will be known simply as the "EU North Sea Region". The present map was provided by Germany
Anyone who would like to see where they will be situated should send away for an excellent booklet, "The European Union Project". It costs £3 plus 50p p&p. You can get details by emailing info@theeuroprobe.org.
Interesting point you made about 51 Liberal MPs abstaining in the Referendum vote. Pity they didn't go a step further and vote against it. It's possible that their leader had his hand slapped by the EU following this, because of what has happened to the Lisbon Treaty at present under discussion in the House of Lords. Labour does not have a majority in the House of Lords and the UKIP peers fully expected the Liberal peers to follow the same line, in which case the bill would have been defeated. Unfortunately, the Libs suddenly had an "about face" and voted to support the bill. That Lisbon Treaty is the last nail in the coffin, you know, because it will be take a two-year long period to get out of the EU once it is ratified. At present, we could just walk away from the EU.
I do urge everyone to get a copy of that booklet I mentioned. It has some amazing truths which you can't find elsewhere and are useful when discussing the subject with people you know.
Yes, Jenny, it is good that we still have freedom of choice as to who we vote for. It won't always be like that. In fairness, you mentioned the Libertarian Party which is a very "zingy" attractive sounding party and it is promoted on the "Devil's Kitchen" website - equally "zingy" and by far the best I have ever seen. It could, indeed, split off some of the votes which could have gone to UKIP if people don't consider very carefully. I see that Col Dee has chosen UKIP, as I have. It is an established party and fairly old fashioned in presentation. However, it already has established peers in the House of Lords and established MEP's. That will do for me!
Have a good weekend, everyone.
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I doubt anyone will send for that booklet. I wish you would. It is easy reading. Meantime, I will mention just one item. A European police force has already been created. It is called "Europol". It is being kept very secret - even from the MEPs. their Headquarters are in The Hague and they have a training school in West London. When the seventh and last EU Treaty is signed, they will be Headquartered in London and take precedence over our present police force. They can enter any home without a warrant and arrest people at will. They will not have to disclose where these prisoners are taken to.
Please have a look at the Website of Gerrard Batten MEP, who is at present standing as UKIP Mayoral candidate against Boris and Ken Livingstone. Track down a speech he made in 2006 on the existence of this European Police Force [EUROPOL]. You won't find details anywhere else apart from there and the booklet.
I am sending off for the booklet, Margot. Yes, I did know about 'North Sea Region' - years ago, the North Sea was called the 'German Ocean'!! Thanks.
As we have had 11 miserable years under Labour rule, I am a smoker and if i were to vote for conservatives I know I would be voting for more of the same. That is why I will do everything in my power to persuade people to vote for UKIP. They state that if elected they will not repeal the smoking ban but they will leave it up to the proprietor or owner to make their own choices. Surely having a choice is better then having NO choice. I am also against our memebership in the EU, I want us out. i donot want to be governed by them. I want my Country to be great once again and a fresh new government in power that gives me some of my freedoms back has my vote 100%.
This country at the moment is in the worse possible state I have ever known it proves that the two party system is just not working.
We need the Labour and Conservartives to have a party that is a real threat to these two parties, otherwise we as the working classes will always be down trodden. UKIP could become that treat to Labour and Conservatives if only people would realise that, and donate some of their time to help this party gain more and more support. We have to remember that the smaller parties donot get air space or much if any media coverage to promote their party like the other parties do. The voting system is out of date we need proportional representation then and only then will Labour and Consservative have a real threat on their hands.So please support this party and hopefully we may see change that benefits us all.
it proves that the two party system is just not workingWell, it's the same situation as they have in America. Two massive parties with so much to lose that there's nothing to choose between them except degrees of hypocrisy. No real change can happen as long as these two behemoths massage each other and hog the political arena. Same with Labour and Tory.
Some people have mentioned the word revolution on these postings. Well i'm all for it. But you understand, freedoom, as history has proved comes at an heavy price. A revolt will have to be quick. brutal,totally ruthless. Only then will the politicos listen.
I have suggested a meeting place. Any takers ? Or are we all words and no action. ?
Peter James:
Regarding proposed revolution: we'd all be brutally arrested and put in prison! Do convicted criminals have a vote? The "incident" may get a mention on the BBC News but it would only be portrayed as a crazed handful of smokers a.k.a. enemies of the people.
The pen is mightier than the sword.
Better to attend that meeting in Amsterdam being organised by the estimable Blad Tolstoy via the F2C website. I know it is scheduled for 2nd and 3rd May and will be inauguration of the first "International Summit Against Prohibition". I know you already intend to go and that Blad has put an enormous amount of hard work into organising it. I hope it will be well supported and sounds a very jolly affair as it will take place on a boat with sleeping accommodation.
I wish I could go myself but my income from the state old-age pension, doesn't even allow me to go to the meeting at Boisdale's which you propose.
Mind you, if I didn't smoke and wasn't paying £4.50 a packet excise duty on cigarettes, I might be able to go to Boisdale's. [Just thought I would add that last bit as a weekend present for the righteous anti-smoking brigade].
I wonder how few people are still reading this thread? Never seen such a long one. Over 100 comments so far.
good! Margot.Let them put me in prison. i fight for my beliefs. I am 51 and sick to death of the destruction, brainwashing propaganda. Too much talk no action!!!
I have to plead ignorance here, Arc Manchem? Can anyone explain please, what/where it is.
Do convicted criminals have a vote - not at the present time, but I believe there's movement in the area that they should be given the right to vote. It's been said it's their Human Right, and I believe it's EU led.
Revoultion, it's a great idea, but I suggest informing the masses that big screen TVs & refreshments will be on hand so people don't miss the reality/soap programmes and their dinner. As I said great idea, but the vast majority in this country have become either indoctrinated, too lazy or just plain spineless, harsh words I know, but I can think of nothing else as to why people just shrug their shoulders and let their freedom & identity be erased without a whimper. And let's not forget we've had politicians ruling us for years that actively hate Britain, more so England, and where the EU is concerned I believe one of their chief aims is to wipe England from the face of the world map.
We now have a media that are only interested in celebrity gossip, they've been more than happy to be compliant and tow the government/EU line. If they had reported the danger and true aims of the EU, especially in the last decade, instead of fawning all over Blair and NULab, perhaps people would've have woken up to the fact that they've been blatantly lied to for years. I also think that the media will, in the end be very sorry they complied, because once the EU have full powers, very soon, then they'll start dictating what the media can and can't report, any dissent will face fines/closure, and this I belive will happen. It doesn't matter about the BBC they already defer to the EU, after all they are in debt to the tune of £90 million loaned to them by the ECB, I believe this was the European bank that loaned them the money.
How can so few do so much damage to the many without mass revolt. It's a question that's always puzzled me.
The same with WHO/ASH, how did they manage get such a hold without any serious questions being asked, once again the media have to be held in the spotlight, their one-sided reporting was/still is criminal. When will someone of influence have the balls to investigate these organisations, because they do seriously need to be.
Another poster on a thread a while back suggested that the way that governments erode freedoms safely is to do it incrementally so that people don't even realise that it's happening until it's too late. I now feel that we all live with the vague nervousness that we might be breaking laws of which we're totally unaware. This is the kind of feeling that is re-inforced by measures such as the new method of enforcing parking restrictions ie by camera. Perhaps this Government differs from previous ones only in its brazen contempt for the electorate. I watched the programme - part of the BBC's "White" season - on Enoch Powell's infamous speech and listened to an MP express the view that Powell had done much damage by driving the issue underground because both camps, Labour and Conservative, agreed that it shouldn't be discussed further "in front of the children" ie the electorate. Perhaps I'm naive, but I can't express the depth of shock that I felt to have such a paternalistic, disdainful attitude towards the electorate admitted by an MP.
As for ASH et al, I'm now so cynical that I suspect that Big Phharma developed NRT and set about marketing it: the anti smoking lobby was a godsend - what better way than to latch on to and assist it to save smokers from themselves and others in a caring, therapeutic-nicotine way.
Sorry, Joan, Arc Manche'm' was a slip of a hasty typing finger. The Trans Manche Region covers the South East of England including the whole of London and an area of France directly across the Channel across from it. It has been controlled by the EU, since October 2006,by an unelected Frenchman called Alain le Vern from the Arc Manche Head Office in Paris. As Westminster Village and its supportive media are within this region, it is not surprising that we know little about it.
I've mentioned above how a copy of the booklet "The European Union Project" can be obtained. This gives a map showing how the entire British Isles will be regionalised and controlled directly from Europe. Our identity as the United Kingdom will cease to exist. The map is similar to the one produced by the Nazis.The booklet makes horrifying reading and shows how Europe will have direct control of all our lives no matter which of the big three parties are in power [temporarily] at Westminster. Drop an email to info@theeuroprobe.org to enquire how it can be obtained.
Much information can also be obtained by delving into the website of the UKIP Candidate Gerard Batten MEP who is standing against Boris Johnson and Ken Livingston in the London Mayoral Elections. Or simply phone the UK Independence Party on 0800 587 6587 and ask them to send their information pack.
Or read the speech made by Lord Pearson of Rannoch, and similar speeches, in the House of Lords on April Fools Day during the Second Reading debate on the Lisbon Treaty.
I shall now, no doubt, have my knuckles rapped and be further accused by one person, at least, of being a blatant supporter of UKIP. I am now unashamedly so, and have arrived at this simply through the excellent debate between us all on these pages. I can now see the colossal folly of our EU Membership and know that there will be no turns back once the final Treaty is signed and the EU has complete unhindered control of us. On that day Europol, [the European Police Force] can march into England and take precedence over our own police force. Their powers are absolute and similar to the Gestapo.
I greatly admire your posts, Joan, and also the extremely intelligent in depth once by Joyce. Let us be grateful for this freedom of speech for the short while we still have it.
Must just add, Joyce, that I watched the beginning of Big Pharma's hate war against the tobacco companies over 30 years ago. they recognised then the therapeutic and healing powers of nicotine. They have tried ever since to mirror these in drugs and are still doing so. The falsely reported "research" was paid for by them and their propaganda war produced the anti-smoking brigade. I believe that this and the unification of Europe is all part of "globalisation".
We need to arm ourselves with as much knowledge as we can and, if it is not too late, remain as an independent nation with a chance to fight back.
Thank you for the compliment, Margot I consider your posts always worth reading.
I, too, am considering UKIP (once I am 100% sure that it has no links with the BNP and I'm pretty sure that it doesn't) as a result of the debate on this thread. Not only does it seem to offer the best chance of an amendment to the smoking ban but I'd much prefer to be out of the EU and I don't fully understand why other parties are so desperately keen for us to be in it.
I'm absolutly gob smacked after reading Margot Johnson's very explanatory letter about the slicing up of the UK and isles, I never realised that the eu's tenticles had more or less copperfastened its grasp already. I had heard of europol but just thought it was a branch of interpol and that its main purpose was to keep track of the traffickers and illegal immigrants,how wrong was I. The main problem was that all govts over the brittish isles were left in power for too long and they ended up getting soft and sold out our birthright to the eu to stay in power and for their big salaries and perks and of course helped along the way by an apathetic electorate. I hope the UKIP candidate Gerard Batten defeats silly borris and red ken for mayor of london, it would be a start, and I hope that people will vote for UKIP in the next elections, anyone but labour again, as a change of govt is badly needed.
Yes Joyce, an interesting point you raise in your last sentence. The more I read about this issue the more I am drawn to UKIP.
UKIP seem to have the economic, political and moral arguments won so that often all their detractors can come back with is resorting to jibes such as calling them "Little Englanders" etc. I have yet to read any pro-EU argument which actually holds water! Further, the EU has shown itself repeatedly to be no friend of democracy, quite the reverse. And then again, if the EU is so good why isn't it (or our EU friendly government and/or media) more open about the effects of EU policies. I wonder how many people realise that post office closures and home information packs are the result of EU intiatives!
Why then do our main political parties continue in varying degrees to support our membership of the EU? They can't all be on the gravy train can they? OK so members of the current government may have got their snouts in the trough but as regards the Tories in waitng - are they just joining the queue for next time around?
I'm sure that it's all down to money & big business in much the same way that the drug companies (sorry, phamaceutical companies) have invested billions over the last 20 years to foster an environment which favours sales of nrt. As usual the media have had a huge role to play in supressing the truth.
So UKIP will have my support and I'll be doing all I can to swing all those I know to the same view. It'll be an uphill battle given the support for the main parties from MSM but it's really the only one worth fighting if we are to try and salvage something of this country for our children.
P.S. I have ordered that booklet you spoke of Margot - look fwd to reading it.
P.P.S. If you haven't already do try and watch the clips of what goes on in Brussels on UKIP TV - AMAZING!!
There is a link from the UKIP website.
Thanks for the UKIP TV info, Bootboy. I didn't know about that.
Thanks for the support, eveyone. I approached this site this evening intending to read, not write. Well aware, also, that my stuff has been a bit O.T.T. and so expecting derision perhaps. I'm not an extremist by nature but know that one has to hit hard sometimes, so that people will listen. A further nugget is that the EU, when in total control, could take people's pensions from them if they do not obey EU Law. I realised today that I was sent that booklet free within the UKIP information pack. You might like to get the info pack. Phone UKIP on 0800 587 6587.
Regarding any link with the BNP, Joyce, this has been suggested repeatedly by only one person on this thread - an avid Tory supporter. This same Tory rather shot his foot by telling us that the BNP have advised their members to vote Tory as a second choice. So even the BNP don't consider themselves to be linked to UKIP. I can assure you that there is no truth whatsoever in this minor attempt to cast a slur and brainwash.
I should imagine that there will be very few people still reading this particularly thread as new topics are introduced at the top of the page. We could ask ourselves, "Why bother? How can so few people make a difference?" Well, for the sake of my children and grandchildren and for a geniune love of my country and hatred of all oppression, I will fight my corner and spread the word to all I know, even if I am the only one.
Regarding Joyce's question re how is it that all three main parties are pro-EU, and is it that they all want to be on their own personal gravy train or have been "got at" in some way. I would guess that it is just the leaders, really. Ordinary MPs must toe the party line on all main issues or be out of a job. It's very doubtful that many of them will realise the full extent and enormity of being taken over completely by Europe. I'm hoping that some will "see the light" before it is too late and transfer their allegiance to UKIP.
UKIP desperately need many more candidates to stand in the next election so that the whole of Britain can be covered. I doubt they have anything like the financial resources for a real recruitment drive and, in any case, as the EU already have the BBC and newspapers in stranglehold, it is difficult to know how the real truth can reach these MPs, let alone the voters.
So we few can help by attending a UKIP meeting ourselves, as I did. It was a lovely evening out - very nice people. We can tell all we know by phone call or letter if our friends and relatives are not local. I'm going to a meeting on the 17th April in a nearby village where a wonderful video "Remote Control" will be shown.
Can we few help to keep Great Britain intact? And remain a place with freedom of discussion like this one? It may already be too late, but I certainly am going to try in my small corner.
Don't want to digress but am a bit alarmed by the latest "gift" from Gordon Brown. He intends introducing Health Checks for all between the ages of 40 and 74. Having enjoyed the health benefits of smoking all my life, I've rarely had need for doctors. I was persuaded by a friend to go with her to a "Well Woman" clinic. It's a story for another day but their false diagnosis nearly ruined my life. My question is, will these Health Checks become compulsory when the EU take over? Will we be forced to take the medication they will then insist upon. or lose our pensions? What an easy way to cull the elderly population!
[See what I mean by us still having the huge privilege of free speech and discussion.]
Thanks for the explanation Margot, I also find your posts very good and informative. It's disgraceful and very worrying that this could happen and nothing was reported, from what should be called the, NON-MEDIA. I do remember hearing about something like this being discussed a couple of year ago, but when it all went silent I thought it had been dropped. Shame on the media.
I thought I knew a fair bit about the EU which I have learned from years of watching the gradual erosion of our own laws & liberties and from the EUReferendum site, they're very knowledgeable about it.
What the vast majority don't realise is that the EU has its tentacles in every aspect of our lives, but it's been done so slowly, except for the last decade, where it seems they're now not afraid of hiding their true aims, their diktats are becoming more and more blatant. They've sucked people in like an hoover, but I have to say is that those vast majority still don't seem to have woken up to the danger they pose.
All I can say, and it may seem harsh, is those that glibbly shrug their shoulders and say 'but what can you do' ought to hang their heads in shame for the legacy that they will leave for their children/grandchildren, because it'll be like leaving them a legacy likened to Communism.
You're UKIP, right Margot, well I asked on here a couple of days back if UKIP were successful what's to say that they won't do an about turn and become staunch EU supporters, because almost every politician in Labour, until elected were anti-EU. I have lost all trust in politics and the people who stand as once they're in office the lies, cheating & corruption come to the fore. To say I'm cynical is an understatement and until an elected party proves otherwise I'll not change my mind.
MaCLiar Brown is now thinking of changing the voting process which will stop any other party gaiining victory. If this happens I think I'll be off out of this cesspit of a country, I couldn't stand living under this rabble again.
I think UKIP may have a chance at the mayoral elections now, good old Boris has announced he wants an amnesty for asylum seekers, I think he's just put himself out of the running. Cameron has slapped him down.
if UKIP were successful what's to say that they won't do an about turn and become staunch EUI'd say it's far less likely for UKIP to do that because their raison d'etre (pardon my European) is for the UK to be independent. They'd be contradicting their own NAME if they went pro-EU.
MaCLiar Brown is now thinking of changing the voting process which will stop any other party gaiining victory.What?! Can you elaborate or provide some links?I just phoned UKIP and asked the guy what their "position" on the smoking ban was.
He said UKIP are in favour of some pubs allowing smoking and some not. Signage outside would denote whether the premises allowed smoking or not.
He clearly wasn't as "pro-smoking" as I am - he said that some licensed premises have found the ban beneficial (lower insurance costs, not having to re-decorate so often, etc.) - but he emphasised several times that UKIP feel the ban is far too heavy-handed and it should be up to the landlord to decide.
Oh and Margot, I asked him to send me the information pack you've been "advertising" :) so hopefully it will arrive soon. I'm eager to read about Europol.
Margot, I read about McLiar wanting to change the voting process the other day. I'll dig the paper out.
Do you know i would like to wake up tomorrow and see an outright victory of UKIP but i know this wont happen until this unfair voting system is changed. We should all write to the papers and television stations to demand we want change to a fairer system. I can tell you why all three main parties want us to be in the EU is because eventually they all want jobs there knowing it will be very lucrative for them.They couldnt careless about joe blogs in the street they are out for their selves. You only have to look inside a newspaper and see for yourself how they are taking advantage of their positions by creaming off their expenses and us stupid mugs are paying for their privledge. Make no mistake NU labour is not for the working classes, my father would turn in his grave now, he was always a strong labour supporter but i am sure if he was alive today even he would be against them. And as for boris johnson he is a turn coat, one minute he dosnt like bans and then the next minute he supports the smoking ban this is a man not to be trusted if he can change his mind by a flip of a coin. They all toe the party line for fear of losing their cushy little number that we pay for. ridiculous.
The information that's emerging about apparent EU plans to exert total control over member states ties in with a group called Common Purpose (previous posts mentioning which have been deleted (but probably because they were off- topic)).
This is ostensibly an organisation that offers leadership training, the founder of which, I think, was an aide in John Prescott's office. At least one MP has been asking questions in the Commons about Government links to it.
Its critics consider it to be a shadowy, sinister organisation that uses questionable techniques to, as it were, manipulate the mindset of trainees in preparation to accept and implement an EU government.
Pat, I do not think that you are necessarily an extremist in your political views and comments. You come across more (like very many of us) as an extremely angry person, who is frustrated, like we all are, at this disastrous law and how it has affected so many people's lives.
But I have to say that I disagree with much of what you have just said.
You say that the three main political parties want us to be in the EU because they all want the very lucrative jobs there. I am sure that there are many MPs that do want exactly that.
But, why would this be from just the three major parties? Admittedly, UKIP are the only party that I know of, that openly state that they are for us pulling out of the EU altogether, and I must say, that I totally agree with them on this issue.
If UKIP are so anti Europe, how come they have 9 MEPs working in the European Parliament? Are they not just jumping on the same gravy train that you accuse the three major parties of doing?
I also do not understand this constant Boris bashing by a number of people on here. There has been this one alleged email, which is supposed to have stated that Boris thinks the smoking ban is working well (or words to that effect). But as I have pointed out time after time, Boris Johnson did not send this email! If he had done, or if he had made this point anywhere, don't you honestly think that the media would have picked up on it by now?
This board and this thread, is the only place that I have seen mention of it. I have even asked if anyone knows the identity of the alleged sender of the original email, but as we all know, no one has stepped forward to claim this little honour.
This whole sorry little story about Boris, is, I am afraid, complete fabrication, designed with the sole intention of denigrating the Conservatives as a whole.
Lastly, your dream of waking up tomorrow and seeing an outright victory of UKIP, must remain exactly that, "a dream" UKIP hasn't managed to get one MP yet, let alone victory.
Well on listening to the news tonight it seems Ken (the Newt) Livingstone has made a comeback, apparently he is now one point ahead of Boris. And that's with news that he took a secret donation from a property developer for his last campaign.
It used to be honesty & integrity was the best policy, unfortunately since Labour has been in power lying & cheating now takes precedence
The only conclusions I can come to is that the polls are rigged or the electorate really are stupid.
For this country to denounce others for their undemocratic election practices is a disgrace. In fact I don't believe we're that far behind Zimbabwe, Labour encourages postal votes knowing they're wide open to fraud, as stated by a judge, likened to a banana republic. And today I read that 1 million EU migrants have registered to vote. They only have to be resident for a little while before they become eligible for local/European elections. Now it becomes very clear why Blair signed up for our labour markets to be opened to all migrants when the EU admitted the Eastern Bloc countries, France, Italy etc., delayed signing for 7 years.
LABOUR HAS BEEN GERRYMANDERING ON A MASSIVE GRAND SCALE, and it seems there's nothing we can do about it.
Peter: The 9 UKIP MEPs are doing a damn fine job at the EU in fighting our own small corner in as many ways as they can. Nobody else is. No, I am not wasting my time and this space listing what they have achieved. You wouldn't listen. Go to the UKIP website or send for their information pack and find out for yourself. As for being on a "gravy train" their is little future for them once the EU have complete control of us all. There will no longer be a UK Independence Party recognised there. There will be no Independant UK.
Here in England, and this information came directly from you, they have drawn on their slim resources to take the Government to court over the deceipt in promising a Referendum in their manifesto. As you reported to us, they lost and it cost them heavily from these same slim resources. Only one "establishment" judge.was needed to announce to them that no party need honour its manifesto promises. What sort of democracy is that?
As for not having any MPs in Britain yet, how can such a party get through the tight stranglehold that Europe has over us and our media through the three main parties, and present their policies together with the true information they hold about our future under total European government?
It can be surmised that you yourself have sold your soul for a handful of silver. Yours is a very expensive well run dark blue website. It purports to represent the smokers and calls itself The Smokers Magazine, but all threads in it run straight back to the Tories. In my opinion, and I am still allowed to have one, it is nothing but a Tory propaganda machine. In other words, an EU propaganda machine.
Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. The truth will finally be known, far too late, that the EU is controlled by a handful of people with absolute power. My gemeration who actually lived through the second world war and endured the deprivation and fear of imminent invasion by Hitler's United Europe will have struggled and survived and been law abiding citizens for nothing. Our fathers will have died or been disabled for nothing. What could have been our grandfathers but died at the age of 17 in the first world war, will have died for nothing.
Our only hope is the UK Independance Party and if I, too, must die for nothing, [and I probably will].I will not give up the fight to save our country.
Please go back to your Tory masters, stop spreading your lies about UKIP and settle down to live with your conscience. What a waste of a gifted and intelligent human being.
I have noted today, elsewhere on these sites, that several sites including Freedom2Choose have now been hacked and disappeared. All potential viewers are redirected to an antismoking site. Only the Forest sites and your site The Smokers Magazine are left functioning. How soon will the Forest sites be hacked and disappear? Then only your site will be left. We who disagree with total EU control will have nowhere to air our views and see what can be done.
Even my own computer has become slower and slower, [anyone else experiencing this?] And this evening, I had great difficulty in getting through to Joe Jackson's second article about smoking oppression in the various European countries tour. I read it easily this morning.
So live with your conscience, Peter, and stop plaguing every single subject that comes up by inserting lies about UKIP. Talk about infiltration! What exactly are you yourself doing> Go back to your Tory masters and tell them you have done the best you can and your website will continue the job for you.
Margot, I too am of your generation.I can't understand why I am so concerned at the trend of today's politics. We are repeatedly told that fascism/Nazism/totalitarianism must never happen again. And yet the old instinct to dictate grows and gathers strength under the disguise of (illiberal) liberalism. Why bother?I'm getting old. But I do care. Truth is the casualty of this propaganda war. I care about that. This is indeed a great debate. Maybe the smokers have discerned that they are at the thin end of a very large wedge which will jam the door against freedom. And if anyone from the hacking classes is reading this, I am a non smoker for the past 10 years who hates the intolerance, division and persecution which the anti-smoking crusade has brought.
Norman, it's wonderful that you do care and care enough that, as a non-smoker, you take the trouble to contribute to this blog. That also goes for all the other non-smokers who sympathise.
Would you care to be part of the "voting plan" (see "Boris and the BNP" thread) or contribute your thoughts?
I believe you're quite angry Margot, by the tone of your post, and I don't blame you. it seems Peter, doesn't mind denouncing UKIP posters for promoting them, yet doesn't see the irony of doing the self-same thing for the Tories.
Freedom2Choose is back in action, the hackers only succeeded for a short while. It makes one wonder whether the hacking had been sanctioned by the government, because on trying to get onto F2C it was re-directed to an NHS No-Smoking site. F2C show WHO/ASH/EU up for the propaganda merchants & liars they are, with reports that totally debunk all their claims. So on this you can safely say they're rattling someone's cage for them to be hacked. There's a lawyer that's a member of F2C and he's very, very knowledgeable about the EU and has educated many on the insidious nature of it.
And if I remember rightly the EUReferendum site was also hacked a while back. I don't know if you've ever been onto this site but it's very good, and knows all there is to know about the EU.
Margot I sympathise with your views about Britain, UKIP and the Tories and I found it particularly moving when you said that our forefathers may as well have died for nothing if Britain goes with the Lisbon Treaty. It's a poetic way to look at it but not, I think, inaccurate.
The fact is, stretching a century back to the trenches, British men and boys did not sacrifice themselves so that the British public could cheer the arrival of Europol on our streets or so that unelected Marxists could re-brand a part of England "the Arc Manche Region". Those things would, I'm sure, have absolutely flummoxed the many thousands of men who gave up their lives.
However, I have to say that I think your treatment of Peter Thurgood is unfair. You can't possibly know whether he is in the pay of the Tories and it's irrational to make that accusation. So, he has a well-run website. Wouldn't it be more tasteful to congratulate him for that than to use it as evidence of bribery?
Peter's steadfast refusal to agree that UKIP are more deserving of the smoker's vote than the Tories may be frustrating - but for god's sake, frustration is part of debate! Peter is clearly a very intelligent, rational guy and his point about the ongoing lack of clarity over Boris Johnson's stance on the Smoking Ban is perfectly sound. The fact is we DON'T know what his position is - unless one decides to take what his PR office say as gospel. (Personally I think it probably is.)
Furthermore we don't know who issued the statement about Johnson now agreeing with the ban. (Nor do we know who asked Forest to get smokers to vote Tory, incidentally.)
In short, Peter is entitled to his opinion. If he's isn't, we're no better than the scum we're up against.
It would be a shame for this thread, which has generated such useful debate, to descend into paranoid name-calling.
And yes, the hacking of F2C is a frightening business.
I agree it does make one wonder about the perpetrators. The fact it was not just hacked but redirected to an "opposition" site suggests government, or ASH, involvement.
Or it could be an overzealous member of the public - the types who cough and wave their hands about if you smoke within 10 miles of them - who has no connection to any organisations but felt like doing their bit for queen & country.
On the other hand it may be some spotty adolescent having a laugh, knowing if he redirected to a "smokefree" site, conspiracy theories would erupt.
Yes, Col Dee. I stand corrected.Like you did once, I let my feelings of irritation run away with me. And like you did, also, I now sincerely apologise. I like Peter as a person and he knows that. I can't understand how such an intelligent man can be so petty at times so just concluded that he must be under orders. No doubt he will refute that himself if it is not so.
Similarly, Boris has a public platform and could also use this forum if he wishes to refute the announcement that he has changed sides in the smoking issue. Peter Thurgood himself has contacted their office and awaits a reply from them. By doing this, Boris must be aware of what has been stated on his behalf. If he continues to remain silent we may presume that he has indeed changed sides.
Norman: I endorse what Joyce says and welcome you. I have often noticed your quiet voice and wondered who you are.
My own memories of what it was like to live through the 2nd world war are as vivid as though they were yesterday. My mother and we three children slept in the cupboard under the stairs. My father had moved us to a rented house in the countryside to be safe from the bombing. Unfortunately, we found ourselves surrounded by five airfields and nightly we listened to the crashing and banging of the aircraft fighting in the sky above us. In the morning, all the children would hunt in the fields for shrapnell, always afraid we would come across a dead body. My mother kept a policeman's truncheon hanging under the stairs ready to defend us in case any Germans forced their way into the house.
In my adult life as a European Tour Guide, I have often taken groups to Ypres and stood with them among the huge quiet graveyards of the 1st world war, and gently unfolded the picture, on the microphone, of how it was as we drove slowly through the flat desolate countryside.
The masterplan of the present EU division and conquest of the UK is based on the original Nazi masterplan. It is shown in the "European Union Project" booklet obtainable from UKIP.
There is not much hope that the UKIP voice will be heard by the general public before it is too late and the EU have complete control of us. It's very likely that most of our serving MPs have much knowledge of this either. My hope, at present, is that a few of them will know and will recognise the dangers we are in. It is asking a lot for a man to give up his comfortable secure career and put his livelihood on the line, but my hope is that one or two will and start the ball rolling by creating a by-election in which they would stand for UKIP. I should imagine that UKIP are strong enough now to be able to give them the fullest support possible. If one or two voices could be heard in parliament, we still have a fighting chance.
Like you, I never would have believed that my "retirement" would suddenly force me to start a whole lot of new work and research. Yes, I am tired now and even as I write this, have far more pressing things that I should be doing. However, I must do it.
Best wishes to all of us.
Crikey, I thought this debate was about Boris Johnson, but it seems to have somehow swung over to me. Maybe Simon should start a new thread entitled "PETER THURGOOD & THE GREAT TORY CONSPIRACY"?
Margot, I am in no one's pay, except myself. I am the owner of a travel business, which, because of the falling pound against the Euro, is failing miserably, hence the extra time which I am now finding to spend on my own website, and here.
I also write, one travel book, and several articles, none of which have made me any fortunes, unfortunately. I designed and run, and paid for, my website. I do not ask anyone for contributions towards it. I designed the website because I am a great believer in freedom, and I want a place where I can air my views, and encourage others to air theirs.
I would absolutely love to say that the Conservative Party contributed towards my website, but I am afraid to say, that I doubt very much if they have even noticed it, let alone contributed in any way.
So there you have it Margot, direct from the horses mouth, so to speak, absolutely no tie ups with any political party, or anyone else for that matter.
Surely, the purpose of any debating forum, is to allow free speech for all, you cannot expect to air your views, and not to get some negative feedback. I get plenty on here, and I think it ads to the excitement. It would be a pretty boring place indeed, if we all agreed 100% with each other wouldn't it?
One thing I cannot understand however, and that is why you say that I keep promoting the Conservative Party's views. I do not do this at all, all I ever state is that I think Labour would be more scared of the Tories than they would be of UKIP. That is my personal view.
I have never used half a page to put the Conservative Party's manifesto on here, along with phone numbers and other contact details, I have also, never told lies about UKIP, as you accused me of.
I do however, keep on seeing yards of stuff about UKIP on here, almost their complete manifesto, including books we can all send for and all the contact details we all might need.
It is no good anyone accusing me of doing exactly what they are doing themselves.
Good point, Peter, and I am glad to hear that you are a Tory by personal preference only. As you rightly say, everyone should have freedom of speech. Not just here, of course, but in general. UKIP haven't got that privilege, unfortunately. Had it not been for the smoking ban and my subsequent search for a solution, I'd probably never have heard of them myself. This is why I try to point people in their direction - how else will people know about them? I don't like keeping on doing it.
People will make up their own minds once they have been able to make contact.
No, in fairness, you haven't mentioned the Tory manifesto, but what's to say?
You have, however, gone in for a huge amount of UKIP bashing. About 50% of the UKIP mentions are from you, not me.
I've just flipped in to the f2C website as I had a message that there was an email waiting for me. I glanced down the front page and noticed a mention of an article written by you in August 1970. It's entitled "Integration? Forget it!" An excellent article in your best humorous style. Recommended reading - if there's anyone left on this page. It really brightened my day and I went back to my weeding still chuckling inside. Thanks for that!
"Spiked" is featuring a number of articles on the EU and the Lisbon Treaty (I accessed from the free society site: down left hand column).
I lamented earlier that I didn't fully understand why our three major political parties were so desperately keen on the EU - perhaps this is the answer (from "No Means No", article on "Spiked"):
"The eurosceptic Economist noted approvingly on 27 May that Brussels has always been about sidestepping democracy. ‘Every country has some complaint about policies being foisted on it from Brussels. Some of that is desirable, for the union has always been in part a means by which national governments force electorates to accept rules that they might not have been able to impose on their own.’ This undemocratic tendency has been accelerated of late, as shaky governments rush to embrace an EU that counters democratic contest with technocratic consensus."
and
"Over recent decades, the rise to prominence of official Europe has paralleled the decline of active politics in the nations of Europe. In Britain it was those on the left who started the political retreat from democracy to behind the Euro-barricades, when they gave up trying to win public arguments over racism or discrimination in open debate, in favour of appealing to human rights judges in Strasbourg to intervene on their behalf. The right, too, proved perfectly willing to take political issues out of the public arena and send them to the Euro-bureaucrats. For instance, despite its avowed Euro-scepticism, the Tory government of the 1990s was exposed when a secret memo revealed how it hoped the European court would strike down the ban on gays in the military, thus relieving it of responsibility for such an embarrassing issue"
("For Europe, but not the EU")
Thanks, Joyce. I haven't looked at "Spike" before. Didn't like the name and felt it not worth wasting my limited time on.
A very good site indeed! I will set aside time soon to read it more fully. I'll also make time to read the Referendum site.
I read the article you promoted. It, and your extracts above, goes a long way towards explaining the support political leaders give to fully joining the EU. Having made a mess of their own governing, perhaps through giving only a quater of their minds to the problems in hand and threequarters to feathering their own nests, the easiest way out is to abandon the country to an external dictatorship. Our own UKIP MEPs have brought the news back to us that the present system of voting on new laws being rushed through the EU parliament are passed only by a show of hands. Their central committee did the count and members had to take their word for it. Our UKIP MEPs forced repeal on this and for a short time voting was by Poll, with each member allowed time to speak beforehand. This proved very time consuming and so the old system of show of hands without debate, is back in action.
In other words - a dictatorship.
If the EU do become all powerful, by fair means or foul, all new EU Laws they make will override any at present in place within member nations. There will be no court of appeal.
It's getting quite cosy in our little corner now, isn't it. I doubt if many are reading as far as this. I hope you will put a comment on the latest Joe Jackson thread. This has become a powerful forum with much diverse informed comment. You could point others in the direction of "Spike".
Who would have thought that just seeking a solution to the smoking ban, would have led to all this?
It is good to learn that France and Holland are still putting up something of a fight. This never gets reported in our own media.
I see today that the UKIP website has a press release exposing the disgraceful invasion of the F2C site by hackers earlier this week, who diverted surfers to an anti-smoking page. Has anyone seen this reported anywhere else (apart from by Forces International, another victim of the ploy)? Meanwhile I have corresponded with my (Tory) MP on these matters, though not originally in connection with the Taking Liberties correspondence, and I am satisfied that in his case I would be happy to vote for him to represent the constituency again.
I hope you don't mind, Norman, I've posted on the Joe Jackson thread wrt UKIP's exposure of the hacking. This is tremendous news: that a UK party is prepared to expose it and that the dirty tricks of the antis will reach beyond pro-choice sites. I, myself, don't think that it was the work of a spotty adolescent, not when surfers were directed to Smokefree England's site. .
Yes, it's a shame, Margot, that threads that are still being contributed to fall behind in the queue to eventually fall off the page! A shame, too, that acres of news coverage are given to Carla Sarkozy and little, if any, to the rejection of the Treaty by the French and Dutch.
I hadn't heard of Europol until you mentioned it, Margot but, strangely enough, today at work I came across someone else who was outraged by it. He said that, in official circles, the practice of drafting in a foreign police force to quell unrest is known as "The China Syndrome"
I have just drafted a letter to my MP (Labour, voted for the ban) to advise that I won't be voting for the Labour candidate in the locals and that Labour's attitude between now and the general election will determine how I vote in it..
Margot
I've just received my copy of that booklet you referred everyone to...."the European Union Project".
BLOODY HELLFIRE - things are a hundred times worse than even I feared. It's frightening!
I too urge everyone here to get hold of a copy and find out what our own mainstream politicians don't want us to know.
Seriously, everyone should read this.
(Peter, I hope you're still reading this thread).
I've just heard that Brown & Milliband will be up in Court on 22nd April 2008. The link is:-
www.stuartwheeler.co.uk. Note, in particular, the "Action so far" section to the left which shows the delaying tactics they have tried so far.
I've also just watched the uTube video "Remote Control" on the UKIP website. It shows the extent that EU already controls everything in UK including postal services and landfill site taxes. Also the billions we pay them each year and the tiny amount we get back. Most importantly, it shows the voting procedure in Brussels - a quick show of many hands and no actual counting.
Dear Peter Thurgood, I am an ordinary working class person who is married with one child of 26. You come across as a very well educated person,probably better educated then I am. I may not be as educated as you but i am certainly not blind and deaf.Let me tell you thirty six years ago i was getting married so we put our names down on a council list to get a council house at that time it was a TWO year wait.Now it is about a twenty year wait, that's progress for you. Thirty six years ago we did not have the ammount of immigrants living in this country.Thirty six years ago we did not have all the violence on the streets. Thirty six years ago we did not have a load of binge drinkers in this country. Thirty six years ago we did not have all the street camera's spying on us from every street corner. Thirty six years ago we did not have the ammount of greedy Hypocritical MP's looking after their own interests before the people, and having their fingers in the tax payers purse. Thirty six years ago we did not have all these stupid rules and regulations that there now is.Thirty six years ago one had a mind of their own. Thirty six years ago we had clean hospitals. Thirty six years ago we did not live in a nanny state.All this in the name of progress.Yes i am looking for a party that gives me back my freedom, I do not want for us to be any part of the EU and that is why I am promoting the UKIP party they meet all my requirements. I think today like never before people are looking for an alternative to the two party system we are fed up with how things have developed in this country. Voting conservatives will be much the same as voting in labour. The reason i have said that is because, I wrote to cameron and asked him if he would really like to see us all give up the cigarettes and i also asked him what would he do about all the lost revenue if we all did, needless to say he never replied to my letter. And as for boris johnson not actually sending that email, i havent heard him say he disagrees with the email being sent out. Cameron says we have moved on regarding the smoking ban but there are tweleve million of us who smoke and i believe that figure is much higher then what they predict have not moved on. I honestly feel Cameron and brown are living in la la land because they both have small children they are not looking after my welfair because my child is older. All they think about is only the people with small children. I think cameron is as bad as brown he still believes that immigration is good for the country, even though we have millions of immigrants already here. He thinks entry into the EU is still going to be beneficial to this country.Well i dont think so. This is what has happened with the two party system it isnt working you only have to look at the state of this country to see that.So again yes i will promote UKIP as much as i can and i will do every thing i can as a voter to try and get this unfair voting system changed so that the smaller parties can have a chance to rule this country and put it back to how it used to be or at least try.I hate this smoking ban but what i hate the most is any government trying to rule me and take away my freedom like this poxy government has done over the last eleven years. Make no mistake cameron hasnt got the balls to change anything if and when he is elected brown will still be governing this country from the back seat because cameron has no balls.And brown knows this, that is why they are rushing in all these new rules and regulations that are unpopular because they know all of them will still stand. You know peter it wasnt so long ago I used to say voting for any other smaller party would give my vote away to labour but i actually dont feel that way anymore, its about time these stronger parties knew they have some sort of threat with the smaller parties becomming more popular with the voter.Can you actually say that having a two party system has been good for this country over the years. This country is in a mess and i donot believe its will be labour or conservatives that put the country to rights.Especially if we are memebers of the EU.
Congratulations, Pat. Very well put indeed. Your simple comparison between how things were and how they are now puts it in a nutshell.
Now we have a job to do. To get even a slim chance of decent survival, we have to tell it to all we know. A very difficult job, as I know from trying to do it myself. I've just returned from a very happy traditional family Sunday Dinner. We have these every Sunday at the home of one of my grown up children or the extended family created through their marriages. They are lovely lively "Darling Buds of May' affairs. We have allotments and grow our own vegetables.
They are cosy happy affairs - then in comes Grandma!
Today, I didn't pussyfoot around and do the polite thing by just touching in and out of the subject. Today I went for the jugular. Much mockery and banter resulted from all ages - "It's only Grandma spouting off as usual."
First reacton, from the extended family and most people outside that I speak to, was "Oh, I don't bother to vote. They are all the same anyway." This time I forced the issue, while still laughing along with them at my accepted eccentricity. I finally achieved some degree of silent attention and listening. Was cut off from time to time by my daughter pointing out that I was spoiling what was supposed to be a happy family occasion. I pointed out that there may not be many more of them in the future. I took down addresses so that I could ask UKIP to send them information packs. Theyh said they will look at them and not count them as junk mail.
This is what you will be up against if you try to spread the word. People won't listen to begin with and you will have to work through being regarded as a crank.
Still, Pat, make the effort to do it - and keep on doing it. It's the only hope we have.
Good luck. And thanks for all the effort you put into a well thought out article.
Ann:
I've watched your own postings with great interewt and agree that very much is now resting upon Ireland. Whether they will be able to see the wood for the trees as their noses are right up against it, is another matter. As an independent nation, and rightly proud of it, they are in a unique position now to strike that blow for maintaining freedom and greatly assisting the other suffering nations of Europe by doing so.
They will be afraid of not being able to survive if they dare oppose the EU. They should take heart. In recent years, Tourism has become the second largest industry after Pharmaceuticals. A free welcoming Ireland could rise to the top of the European tourism list.This is only one of the many assets they have, if they can keep hold of them.
They have a good record of maintaining independence. During the second world war, my grandfather, too old to fight but still conducting his business as a textile agent, continued to import Irish Linen from time to time. He would bring back food parcels for us - lovely food which we could not get in England.
Do all you can to encourage them to clearly see all that is involved. I wonder if anyone in their government knows of the existance of the master plan in the European Union Project booklet. Their division would be known as The Hibernian Region.
Nice talking to you!
Good for Grandma (two posts above). I get accused of 'ranting' by some of my near and dear. Also I agree about the eloquence of Pat's message. And I hope we're all, in our way, like 'village Hampdens' speaking up against the 'little tyrants' of our fields.