No change, no chance
Thursday, February 7, 2008 The following comment, posted by Martin V, appears under THIS post. However, I thought it deserved greater prominence. It says everything you need to know about the "choice" available to voters at the next Election:
Spurred to further action by Dave Atherton's example (well done, that man!!), I decided to phone Central Office a few minutes ago, and seek some clarification on current Conservative thinking on this most SIMPLE of issues.
I was put through to a very well-spoken young dame ... and enjoyed the following brief exchange:
"Hello! I notice that under what you describe on your website as the 'Opportunity Agenda' you declare yourselves in favour of 'giving people more opportunity and POWER OVER THEIR LIVES' - so I assume you're rather against the ghastly Nanny-Statism of New Labour?".
"Yes, absolutely!"
"Excellent! In that case, how soon after a Conservative election victory will you give ME the opportunity once again to have a fag with my pint - a freedom I've enjoyed for over 40 years now?"
"Er, we're not!"
"So, you're not THAT committed to individual freedom, after all?"
"Yes, but we've already had a full debate (?) on this subject and blah blah blah ......"
"So, you're not going to allow a sensible segregation of smoking and non-smoking customers, with proper ventillation" etc etc.
"No - we've already tried that, and IT DOESN'T WORK." (?????)
"Well, it hasn't been PROPERLY tried, actually."
Clearly, the lady was allowing no challenges to her unalterable view of the Universe. Why allow an Ugly Fact to mar a Beautiful Prejudice?
Already - as you may well imagine - I was edging rapidly into White Knuckle mode, and enquired (rather naively) why she felt that SHE and her colleagues were somewhow entitled to tell ME how to lead my life.
Her riposte was finger-waggingly simple:
"Well, it's VERY bad for you, you know!"
So much for 'opposition' to the Nanny State ......
You couldn't make it up.
Reader Comments (23)
As Forest is probably the biggest voice of the smoker in this country, how about launching an online petition, which would be addressed to the Conservative Party, calling for them to overhaul this draconian law, and give the people the freedom their fellow Europeans are receiving in countries such as Spain, where the smoker and the non smoker, has a clear choice of venues to use, i.e. smoking, and non smoking?
Are we a part of Europe or aren't we? If we are, then we deserve to share the same freedoms as the rest of Europe.
Every signature obtained on the petition would agree to vote Conservative if they agreed to overhaul this law. Likewise, every signature would agree to withdraw their support from the Conservative Party, including monetary donations, and memberships, if they did not agree to give us our freedom back, in line with Europe.
Cameron is high on ambition and short on principle.
When the current prime minister and his party are eventually flung from office and poncey "Dave" takes over, it will be: "The buffoon is dead. Long live the ninny."
What a pity the country has no quality politicians to choose from. What a pity too,that the Conservative Party felt they had to meet the challenge of Blairism by appointing someone to lead it who will prove yet another disaster for GB plc.
They are all the same ilk. I agree with a comment on a another post that it will take nothing more than a revolution now to bring back common sense.
It is on all politicians agenda to control & subdue.
It is no wonder there is so much apathy in this country - locally as well as nationally - we just don't feel there is anyone in the running who is worth voting for! It's about time we had some proper candidates standing, ones that the people can believe in and trust - it has been a long time since that was the case!
In practical terms there is little to choose between the libconlab parties. All seem wedded to the big government philosophy of ever increasing control and decreasing personal liberty within the framework of our unelected masters in Brussels.
Philosophy wise at least UKIP seems much more attractive.
A week or so ago, I urged everyone here to complain to the Advertising Standards Authority about the new EU TV advert using a child, and claiming 19,000 deaths from passive smoking. Did anyone even bother? Sadly, No!!
I have just received a letter from the ASA and because they only received 2 complaints, including mine! they have concluded there will be no investigation because the public do NOT have a problem with the claims,and do NOT think they are being misled, and these incredible lies will just keep getting bigger and bigger, with most of the public believing them, which makes anyone's position fighting this madness even more hopeless.
No compaints, therefore it must all be true,so no problem!
hey have to be made aware there IS a problem by force of numbers. The tone of the letter made me feel that I was the only one in the country with any objections to this fraud, and I think they may actually believe that.
Very disappointed.
It's not too late to make them aware, hundreds of us.
EU Advert, UK GOLD 30th Jan. 10.45pm
19000 deaths from passive smoking.
www.asa.org.uk
I am very sorry to say that you are wasting your time Zitori. Not by putting forward your ideas, but by expecting people to stand shoulder to shoulder with you and make their voices heard.
The vast majority are content with just whinging. Ever since this ban came into being, I have been advocating positive action on a number of different sites, and a number of different issues, but again I am sorry to say, that "action" doesn't seem to be a word most people want to hear.
I have witnessed a couple of marches, which although very well intentioned, doesn't do a bloody thing for our cause, I mean, who the hell is going to take notice of 20 to 30 people marching through some small town in the Midlands or wherever?
A march could only possibly gain any prominence, and publicity for our cause, if it were organised along the lines of the Countryside Alliance March through London, or the Fuel Protesters, who brought a large part of London to a standstill.
Then we had National Smoking Day. This could have been a good workable idea, if it had been publicised enough, well in advance, but as it went, I never heard of anyone, apart from myself, who actually smoked in a restaurant that night, and no one I spoke to had even heard anything about it.
The general consensus seems to be, lets all keep moaning to each other and that somehow seems to make a lot of people think that they are a part of something and are accomplishing something. They aren't, and it doesn't.
It is not any good preaching to the converted, we should be like missionaries out there, preaching to the heathens, who don't know right from wrong. And before anyone asks me, no, I didn't report that awful Ad either, but I as sure as hell am going to do it right this minute.
Armchair generals never won any war.
P.S. Zitori, I have just completed the complaint to the ASA. Let's just hope others follow suit. Better late than never.
EU Advert, UK GOLD 30th Jan. 10.45pm
19000 deaths from passive smoking.
www.asa.org.uk
My apologies Zitori for not following this up. The fact that I do not tend to watch UK Gold is no excuse. Whether it will do any good now or not, I have followed Peter Thurgood's lead and just forwarded a complaint to the ASA about this advert.
You are absolutely right in that we all like to moan and groan about the unfairness of things imposed on us, never mind the fact that they are only backed up by lies, but too few are willing to act. I have no excuse as just this year I am one of 3 who set up a local action group for our town as we are sick and tired of all council representatives ignoring the people who live and work in the town. We all get our ears bent when we go down the town, but none of these people come to any of our meetings or put messages on our website.
Trying to do something at a national level, which this needs, is obviously far more challenging. Sometimes the problem for people is, like with our local group, one half of a couple is for fighting and the other half is for a quiet life, and has the 'just get on with it' attitude. That can make active support a lot more difficult, especially if activities take place some way from home territory.
I just don't go out anymore, since the smoking ban came in. I am not much of a drinker, but if I fancy a glass of wine I can have that at home, at this time of year in particular, in the warm and I can smoke to my hearts content. What is the point in going out to a nice cosy pub, bar or restaurant, just to stand in the cold and wet outside in order to smoke. I do not enjoy having a coffee or a drink out if I cannot have a smoke with it and, particulary this time of year, I do not enjoy standing on a street, or wherever, in the cold and wet, so staying at home is the best option.
I am sorry if this causes businesses to suffer, but then those businesses should not have supported the total ban in the first place! Here, I am specifically talking about 'big business' not the individual licensee, as big business could have made a difference.
Thanks Peter and Lyn. I thought I was left pissing against the wind! Now how about a real onslaught people?!
Zitori, I am also going to put this on the front page of my website at www.thesmokermagazine.co.uk
I am doing it now! See if you can get all other pro-smoking sites to follow suit
Great stuff. Peter I'll do my best.
Zitori
I haven't seen the ad but if it contains the usual manufactured nonsense figures that the likes of ASH spout it may be of interest to blogs such as Devil's Kitchen (http://devilskitchen.me.uk/)
The language on this blog may be somewhat candid but he talks a lot of sense and I think it's quite widely read by some politicians.
Another one is Guy Fawkes's blog (www.order-order.com/).
Aplogies if you already know about these but it could be a way of spreading the message. Anything is better than the apathy most people show at present.
This has set the cat amonst the pidgeons I will be joining you.
Zitori -
Well done - and many thanks for bringing yet another propaganda atrocity to my attention.
Sadly, I was totally unaware of its existence.
I shall certainly do as you suggest, also, and draft a letter of complaint to the ASA in a day or two. Working 12 hour shifts as I do (someone has to pay for Tony's pension), I'm a little knackered right now.
I DO sympathise with your sense of exasperation, however: the next time I hear ANYBODY say 'What's the use ?', I swear I shall punch him (unless he's bigger than me, of course) !!
Fear not, however - I shall not fail you ............
Vote for cameron he's just as bad as brown he is a whimp. I totally agree there is noone worth voting for they are all out to get rid of the fags come what may. But just wait when they have finally achieved their purpose they will be putting up taxes right left and centre and I do not want anyone to moan to me about it especially if they agreed with this smoking ban. Every day i hate this country more and more i think i will go and live in russia they get more freedom there then we do now. I think there isnt an MP out there that has the B...... to stand up in the houses of parliament and complain that the government is taking away our freedoms on a daily basis. Frightened they may lose their cosy little number and there bloody huge salary's that the problem. I cannot believe britain has turned into a nanny state, and as for the smoking ban we should all just ignore it and smoke.
Well, there are some checks and balances ninny "Dave", as well as buffoon Gordon, need to take account of.
The taxes that smokers contribute to the treasury are massive. The government admitted, in 2006, that smokers contribute £8 billion in tax from the direct sales on cigarettes and tobacco. Many people say this figure excludes VAT and it may do, but personally I am not sure of that point. However, what I do know because of my professional capacity, is that the government also makes another massive amount, which may be added to the £8 billion, as a result of the corporation tax levied on the profits of the tobacco companies. Don't forget, because many of you do, including Forest, that the government rakes in at least two wads of tax from baccy as I have described.
Last year, I did a back of an envelope calculation on the amount in total and it came to £18.5 billion. I was later surprised when a couple of months later, one of our better quality newspapers - either The Telegraph, The Guardian or The Times - reported that their estimation of the total revenue was £18 billion.
Sooo, long an the short of it, my estimation may have been fairly accurate. Either way, the government makes an awful lot of money from tobacco taxes plus it must also recognise how much of the economy is dependent on the contribution of smoking customers (pubs, clubs, bingo halls, restaurants, cafes, casinos etc).
Now, the argument has already been put that if smoking ceased, then the tax deficit would have to be spread over society in general as the government could not possibly afford such drop in income. Indeed, it's a lot of money to make up in a country where another £100 billion has just been added to the national debt as a result of Northern Rock alone.
Then, add to that, the fact that the National Lottery is being purloined to pay for the Olympics whilst the government says it cannot afford to give a measly £2.1 million to maintain the good condition of our cathedrals. Irrespective of whether we are religious or not, the latter are cherished by many of us and provide a wonderful testament to our building and architectural skills and much, much more. Moreover, the Olympics will come and go, but our cathedrals have, and should continue to provide, solace and inspiration for centuries.
In a nutshell then, which government can afford to be without tobacco tax in today's cash strapped troubled Britain much of which has been created by New Labour?
These are not happy times and Cameron is nauseatingly pathetic in his desire to appease the anti tobacco lobby. Dave wants power not principle and if had any real balls at all, as opposed to being able to present good speeches (which he probably doesn't even write on his own) he and his party would be calling for a vote of no confidence in this administration.
At the last Tory leadership contest, there were only two to be considered of any substance: Clarke and Davis (or Davis and Clarke - take your pick). Fox and Cameron were a waste of space. I'm afraid then that although a possible Tory-Lib Dem pact may be good news to defeat this wantonly criminal and insane government, after it has gone, we shall, nevertheless, still be headed up by a brainless idiot.
Terrific posts here.
This has all got me wondering what on earth CAN be said to these politicians (or their relatives - err *cough* - assistants) that will produce an ounce of thoughtfulness in their response rather than standard, automated replies. With that in mind...
Simon, has Forest ever produced a list of things that are considered fine and 'ever day' that have dangerous chemicals in higher concentrations than smoke?
For example, the arsenic content of tap water that has been mentioned before.
My thinking is that it could be worth calling these people up with such a list to hand and asking them directly 'Does SHS contain <read out list of chemical names> in greater quantities than tap water?' (or whatever substance is relevant).
If they can't answer, the caller can inform them that, in fact, it does not, and then ask for an enquiry into why that substance has not been considered as ban-worthy as second-hand smoke.
If a definitive list was established, then huge numbers of people could start asking these questions of their (so-called) 'representatives'.
I hope everyone who reads the post at the top copies it and sends it to david camerons office. What a load of nonsence saying conservatives will give us much more control over our daily lives. They are no different from browns government, if they do not allow us to smoke inside a perfectly legal substance that this government and any future government takes the revenue from. To my mind they are not being serious about wanting us all to stop smoking, they are no better then drug barons that play on people addiction and weaknesses. If they want us to stop smoking then stop taking the tax from it they are all hypocritical and all want control of our daily lives that a fact.! If david cameron was serious and wanted us to believe him he should once elected destroy this cigarette ban and prove he means what he says.
Hi I have just complained to the asa, as you say better late than never. Sorry, I don't get on here as often as i'd like! Hope it helps anyway.
Hi Zitori and everyone else. Following my complaint to the ASA I received, in the post, a rather dismissive, thought lengthy, response. Basically it said they could intervene if an advert risked causing significant harm, caused widespread offence or was materially misleading. In this case they do not feel there has been such a breach and will not be taking any action.
They go on to say that they understand I object to anti-smoking advertisements generally as I feel they form part of the Government's propoganda against smoking. (Their words).
They then say "We considered that it was reasonable for the advertiser to highlight the danger of second-hand smoke, by informing viewers of the number of non-smokers believed to die each year from diseases primarily known to be caused by cigarette smoke. We felt that in the context of a campaign produced by the European Commission to encourage the public to think about the harmful effect SHS can have, the advertisement was unlikely to mislead viewers. It is generally accepted that cigarette smoke can be harmful to those who breathe it in and we do not propose to challenge these claims formally."
It goes on to say that only 3 complaints had been received to date about this advertisement which appears to have been running for at least a year.
There are then the usual platitudes, we realise this is not what you want to hear, etc. and they attached an adjudication of another SHS related advert, the one where people in bars, etc were smoking and the smoke was highlighted on the advert to show the amount that isn't normally seen. There were 36 complaints about this, but the Dept of Health spouted its usual bullshit and lies and this resulted in the content of the ad being upheld as neither offensive or misleading!
It is amazing just how much misleading information is broadcast and how little we can do about it, especially when it comes from a government body. This is just further proof that we are being manipulated and dictated to by a bully state that feels the only way it can control the people is to scare them into submission. The whole thing is disgraceful.
I should respond to this letter, but right now I am just too angry to put together anything coherent. If anyone wants to see the letter and the Adjudication they sent me, let me know and I will set up a one time email for you to contact so that I can scan the documents and send them on.
I know just how you feel Lyn. It's their standard letter of commiseration.They give you the 'evidence' of the experts, the very people involved in this fraud. That is the ASA's only point of reference, as any opposition to it, is from non-scientists or cranks, although the reality is that the cranks are now running the show.
I have already responded to my letter, and it seems that they will believe 'anything' that they are told by the DOH, who are in turn supplied by ASH, SCOTH etc.
Having said that,I still believe huge numbers of complaints, given the amount of people who are against the ban, would shake things up, but they're not going to take any notice at all of a few isolated misguided idiots.
It doesn't bode well for any future fight, if people can't take a few minutes to make their greivances known.
Life is becoming less fun and more intolerant. The credit squeeze, the smoking ban and the threat of the £4 pint are blamed for Pub closures, which according to the British Beer and Pub Association are happening at the rate of 27 a week. An estimated 1,000 more will close before the end of the year. Pub closures at this rate are threatening our social fabric and community history.
Beer sales are at their lowest level since the Great Depression of the 1930s. Pubs are selling 14 million fewer pints a day than in 1979. There are 57,000 pubs left in Britain but total alcohol sales have dropped by six % in the past year. Hmmm. The more this government bans, the harder is is on EVERYONE and the knock on effect is not even considered. When the government banned advertising crisps, sweets and yoghurts to children, whole industries took a dive; not just the food industry, but also the advertising industry, (actors, singers musicians, secretaries PAs, creative directors, sales departments and everyone involved) and the broadcasting industry! This explains why the commercial TV companies have such a dreary collection of cheap TV shows coupled with old US imports! Soon alcohol ads will also be banned. If you look at the only ads we are allowed to watch, you will only see loans ads, car ads, insurance scam ads, charity ads and a handful of furniture companies. That’s it! We are not allowed to hear about Yoplait yoghurt or a new Barbie Doll anymore, but we can get £25,000 into debt just by calling this number…
This is an atrocity for a supposedly free society.
The trouble is, there is nowhere to run. It is global.